Judging Examples

quote:

Originally posted by Smokin':
It was never judged for "bite through skin" no it's the defacto standard (so you have to scrape the skin, use meat glue, debone the chieken ---aaarrrchhh)

We are taught that if a cook presents a chicken with skin, we have to taste it...so if you have problems getting a bite to taste, then how is a judge to score this?

Can't really remember the criteria for appearance other than if you really want to taste the sample, so I guess it must be up to the judge to use his imagination on how KCBS defines this "appearance"?...or am I missing something here?

Anyway, we now have KCBS letting cooks have artist impressions in their appearance...please explain the criteria that is suppose to be judged on Smokin', yeah I seen a palm tree in a pork butt presentation, no that's not sculpturing...oh well!

Maybe someday we will get back to cooking BBQ, but I really don't think ALL the fault lies with the judges, but you do have to blame someone I guess...LOL!

I ran across this site scouting turn in boxes. I was amazed at the comments however I seemed to weed out the ones that had the most consistant nines and used those boxes as a guide.

What amazes me is like you, these judges on this seem to be serious about this. I can only imagine how they conduct their professional careers.......

Oh well, KCBS has a growing problem that isn't keeping up with the growth of the sport and that is that there should be some more criteria for minimum standards at the table. I would say that anything below a 7 should have to be recorded as to why and be subjected to review. by table captain.

I think a the sixth judge should be the table captain who is at the least more tenured in number of comps judged and training/certifications. and his score shall not be thrown out and it should be noted on the score sheets who the table captain as well for inquiry. then six judges still exist. one score is dropped and there is at least a "Headmaster" judge guaranteed.

I think you will see more 8's than 9's because of this but then again when there is a 180, it will be something to undeniably assume it was a perfect submission.

my two cents.

P.S. in this format only the table captain scores the appearance, it its a 8 then its all 8's. there would be some uniformity to the criteria of appearance at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinOkie:
You know me, I've gotten pretty opinionated about judging.

After reading some of the comments on this site (link below), it scares me that judges make the various comments they do.

I think one of you first posted it, but I just got time to check out some actual photos and comments.

http://www.bbqcritic.com/judgemybox.html

Reading those comments tells me judges have just taken too much personal opinion and turned it into fact with their scores. Look at the photos and click on "comments" to see what CBJ's say. Uh, like "it looks dry so I'm scoring it down for appearance? I don't remember dryness being a criteria for appearance (it's in tenderness)

Personally, I wish the judges would put comments every single time they score, to all teams and they had to prove their score. If I got some of those comments I would probably be visiting the reps.

The worrisome part is just like what happened when Judges started posting about chicken skin, this kind of site will help "teach" BBQ judges what others do. It was never judged for "bite through skin" no it's the defacto standard (so you have to scrape the skin, use meat glue, debone the chieken ---aaarrrchhh)

Thats just not BBQ to me.

I have to join in here. I am not a certified judge, but I can tell when BBQ taste good. For me I am more impressed with a guy that can turn out 100 lbs of ribs and pork butt on a day in day out bases and make a living by keeping the doors open to a good BBQ joint. As opposed to someone who can take a slab of ribs and basically "photo Shop" them into impressing some one who has probably not eaten as much BBQ as I have. Now don't get me wrong, I am truly impressed with the ability people have which far exceeds mine in producing award winning BBQ,I'm not sayin... I'm just sayin...

Now having spouted off, can I still come to the massive deck reunion????? Please???

I don't mean to be argumentative and I try to stay away from judging discussions,because they make my head hurt.

I'd have to worry about the TC that loved to look at "redheads" and I loved to look at "blondes".

How about the TC that had "visited" with a cook team only once and had no idea how much might go into a perfect appearing box-especially,doing brisket on an open table in a 30-40 mph OK wind in August.
Sorting thru a couple cases of bad leaf lettuce trying to find enough to build four boxes.
Clumsy volunteers mishandling the boxes and depositing sauce smudges that shouldn't have been there.

Personally,I might just as soon have a couple cooks at the table judging the appearance.

Just a couple of thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by cal:
We are taught that if a cook presents a chicken with skin, we have to taste it...so if you have problems getting a bite to taste, then how is a judge to score this?

My point is that KCBS never established that chicken skin had to be "bite through". It was judges in forums talking about it. And KCBS for the longest didn't require you to eat/taste/test the skin, many judges just peeled it off and ate the chicken "because I don't like skin".

Hey, score the skin, but who says "bite through" is the 9 for chicken?

When you have to debone it, scrap it and glue it back on with meat glue, then that's a problem for me. That's not BBQ.

quote:

Originally posted by Smokin':
Hey, score the skin, but who says "bite through" is the 9 for chicken?

You're putting words/numbers in my mouth now...LOL. I never said bite through skin was a nine, I said, if you present skin on and it's "not" bite through you can't get a nine...what's that sayin you gave me,"it is what it is"!

Yeah, I'm with you on all that skin scraping,gluing,toothpicking bull chit, not for me. Guess I'll have to POACH...LOL!, not that it is BBQ, but hey chicken outta be called grilling not smoking anyway.

It occurred to me while looking through those examples that it would be a great benefit to set up a range of 9 boxes for each meat type, showing what a box that should receive a 1 looks like, all the way up to 9, so there's an official standard.

Personally, I doubt it would be possible to do this - the scale is too fine - how would one really decide between a 2 and a 3? it should be DQ, poor, good or great, and it should be easy to explain the why a box is better or worse than good. i suppose this might lead to too many ties, but really, among the top chefs, is there really one who stands that far out from the others? Only if 9 of them have a bad day and the 10th doesn't.

All I have to say is I have looked at that site before and used it more as a reference point for what the presentations look like in design. I don't care how good a picture was taken, it will never be as good as being on site looking at the actual box.

Secondly, I was taught as a judge back in '98 to ask myself "Does the BBQ look good enough that I want to eat it?". As part of that, if the BBQ looks dry, I will definitely take that into account in arriving at my score. Call me right, wrong, or crazy but that is how I have always approached the judging of appearance.

IMHO

Very good positions on this.

What i can't seem to understand is how can 300+ entries be fairly and accurately judges at the Super Events like the royal. Are there many ties that determine the top places? I could see a 30 way tie for top score if all six judges score alike at different tables on different entries. say 999 998 999 989 899 898 and this score is identical across 30 entries.

How often does this happen say the top 5 in a category is a 5 way tie for first?

quote:

Originally posted by Cook One:
Now having spouted off, can I still come to the massive deck reunion????? Please???

I always wondered who was doing to do all the dish washing and cleaning up. Knew it wasn't going to be Mrs. Smokin. Guess we just found the volunteer. Jer

quote:

Originally posted by David Qualls:
... I could see a 30 way tie for top score if all six judges score alike at different tables on different entries. say 999 998 999 989 899 898 and this score is identical across 30 entries.

How often does this happen say the top 5 in a category is a 5 way tie for first?

Well, since you brought it up. Grrrrr

I competed in one of the Smoke on the Water contests.

If ONE judge had changed ANY score to one point higher, I would have won RGC (and a difference about about 4,000 ovver what I did make).

If TWQ judges had changes ANY score to one point higher, I would have won GC.

Now you see why scoring can be a #$@%^

Now, but to the subjective...

I don't know the statistics, but having judged the Royal, you'd be surprised how bad a lot of the food is. First year, I didn't get a SINGLE entry on any of my tables that I would score an 8.

And I'm a fair judge. As a cook, I'll give you the higher of two numbers if I'm torn on a score. But I'm also a stickler for "judge as presented"

I'm pretty lenient on appearace as I know it's taste and tenderness that will kill you. I glance and decide my score. I don't get into the nitty gritty OMG there's parsley that wasn't placced right or OH NO one piece of chicken isn't a perfect clone of the others. It's ALL about AS PRESENTED.

KCBS has a tie breaking forumula and in the large contests I've competed in, I don't see a lot of exact scores but they are there. I know it involves categories and in some cases, bringing in the 6th judges score as it's normally excluded.

But HEY, get there and you can tell us how it happens.

RE: the ties,was why the board moved away from the 9-8-7 scoring.Judges gave a nine if they found nothing wrong and deducted a point for each thing they found wrong.There are a lot of good cooks and they can bunch up at the top.
The feeling was that a seven killed you for the day.

Ribdog turned in a perfect 180 brisket and wound up fifth,as I remember, in a large/top quality comp.

At Tryon ,with about 90 very good cooks,we lost one by two ten thousandths of a point, after the computer did its calculation.

All of this after drawing hot,or cold tables where the judging will have to be somewhat subjective-no matter how we set it up.

Just a couple examples and at night when you sit around the cooksites with a lot of experienced teams,almost everyone has an anecdote like these.

Like Smokin' says about the quality of entries at the huge contests,where everyone may go because it is the social scene of the season.

If you are invited as a qualifier among about 80,there can be sme pretty good entries.

Cooking the OPEN the next day with 400 cooks that came for the several days of partying can put a lot of not always exceptional boxes.

When we discuss TC s,while folks may say judges just come to eat the free food,they may captain so they don't have to eat the entries.

Just a couple of thoughts.

seems to me if you deserved 2 more point you would of got them, quit crying and learn how to cook!! That is all good day sir!!

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinOkie:

quote:

Originally posted by David Qualls:
... I could see a 30 way tie for top score if all six judges score alike at different tables on different entries. say 999 998 999 989 899 898 and this score is identical across 30 entries.

How often does this happen say the top 5 in a category is a 5 way tie for first?

Well, since you brought it up. Grrrrr

I competed in one of the Smoke on the Water contests.

If ONE judge had changed ANY score to one point higher, I would have won RGC (and a difference about about 4,000 ovver what I did make).

If TWQ judges had changes ANY score to one point higher, I would have won GC.

Now you see why scoring can be a #$@%^

Now, but to the subjective...

I don't know the statistics, but having judged the Royal, you'd be surprised how bad a lot of the food is. First year, I didn't get a SINGLE entry on any of my tables that I would score an 8.

And I'm a fair judge. As a cook, I'll give you the higher of two numbers if I'm torn on a score. But I'm also a stickler for "judge as presented"

I'm pretty lenient on appearace as I know it's taste and tenderness that will kill you. I glance and decide my score. I don't get into the nitty gritty OMG there's parsley that wasn't placced right or OH NO one piece of chicken isn't a perfect clone of the others. It's ALL about AS PRESENTED.

KCBS has a tie breaking forumula and in the large contests I've competed in, I don't see a lot of exact scores but they are there. I know it involves categories and in some cases, bringing in the 6th judges score as it's normally excluded.

But HEY, get there and you can tell us how it happens.

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
seems to me if you deserved 2 more point you would of got them, quit crying and learn how to cook!! That is all good day sir!!

Aren't you a Peach! I didn't read it that he was complaining, its just frustrating that judging BBQ is very subjective. I couldn't give a damn how many contests you may have judged, (assuming you have 20 contests recorded) A one day class and an online refresher does not adequately qualify you to be up to par with the skills involved to be a top cook in todays BBQ World. I'm damn sure not there but then again I practice every weekend and research and test flavor combinations nightly.

What do you do to stay on your game as a "Judge" read a message board, suck up to the event organizer so you can eat, err. judge for "FREE"? Come On, these cooks spend 10's of thousands of dollars to compete and a half/assed BBQ enthusiast shows up with a certificate of one days time and says "I'm an Expert, Learn to Cook Better" You Sir are what's wrong with KCBS judging system. The structure of scoring is good in my opinion. The training of those that administer that structure are way behind the times compared to the skill set of the product they judge.

If you take this comment offensive, Learn to judge, because the way you judged Russ' post probably mirrors your subjectivity in the tent with your crackers and water and ziplock bag...

Well this is how it is there are some that are there just for free food im sure, that will be a hard problem to fix, as for the judging, i dont know of a good way "to train" a judge except for going to contest and getting familiar with the different ways people cook, i dont understand why you keep crying about the judges, because with out the judges you dont have a contest! i think the only reason you are griping is because you cant win. maybe you should try a new hobby, because it seems to me all you can do is gripe about this one. Im sure im not the only one sick of you whining about the judges.

quote:

Originally posted by David Qualls:

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
seems to me if you deserved 2 more point you would of got them, quit crying and learn how to cook!! That is all good day sir!!

Aren't you a Peach! I didn't read it that he was complaining, its just frustrating that judging BBQ is very subjective. I couldn't give a damn how many contests you may have judged, (assuming you have 20 contests recorded) A one day class and an online refresher does not adequately qualify you to be up to par with the skills involved to be a top cook in todays BBQ World. I'm damn sure not there but then again I practice every weekend and research and test flavor combinations nightly.

What do you do to stay on your game as a "Judge" read a message board, suck up to the event organizer so you can eat, err. judge for "FREE"? Come On, these cooks spend 10's of thousands of dollars to compete and a half/assed BBQ enthusiast shows up with a certificate of one days time and says "I'm an Expert, Learn to Cook Better" You Sir are what's wrong with KCBS judging system. The structure of scoring is good in my opinion. The training of those that administer that structure are way behind the times compared to the skill set of the product they judge.

If you take this comment offensive, Learn to judge, because the way you judged Russ' post probably mirrors your subjectivity in the tent with your crackers and water and ziplock bag...

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
Well this is how it is there are some that are there just for free food im sure, that will be a hard problem to fix, as for the judging, i dont know of a good way "to train" a judge except for going to contest and getting familiar with the different ways people cook, i dont understand why you keep crying about the judges, because with out the judges you dont have a contest! i think the only reason you are griping is because you cant win. maybe you should try a new hobby, because it seems to me all you can do is gripe about this one. Im sure im not the only one sick of you whining about the judges.

quote:

Originally posted by David Qualls:

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
seems to me if you deserved 2 more point you would of got them, quit crying and learn how to cook!! That is all good day sir!!

Aren't you a Peach! I didn't read it that he was complaining, its just frustrating that judging BBQ is very subjective. I couldn't give a damn how many contests you may have judged, (assuming you have 20 contests recorded) A one day class and an online refresher does not adequately qualify you to be up to par with the skills involved to be a top cook in todays BBQ World. I'm damn sure not there but then again I practice every weekend and research and test flavor combinations nightly.

What do you do to stay on your game as a "Judge" read a message board, suck up to the event organizer so you can eat, err. judge for "FREE"? Come On, these cooks spend 10's of thousands of dollars to compete and a half/assed BBQ enthusiast shows up with a certificate of one days time and says "I'm an Expert, Learn to Cook Better" You Sir are what's wrong with KCBS judging system. The structure of scoring is good in my opinion. The training of those that administer that structure are way behind the times compared to the skill set of the product they judge.

If you take this comment offensive, Learn to judge, because the way you judged Russ' post probably mirrors your subjectivity in the tent with your crackers and water and ziplock bag...

BBQ Judge
Thanks for proving the point. With an attitude like yours, chances are it is the judges. With the proper approach you could have presented another point of view that the forum may have listened to. But since you took the low road, enjoy the scenery. Someone please pull the plug.

quote:

Originally posted by the BBQJudge:
Well this is how it is there are some that are there just for free food im sure, that will be a hard problem to fix

Easy fix, everyone leave the cooler at home, that is how I do it.

That is true, by the time im done with a contest taking food is not even an option lol.

quote:

Originally posted by cal:

quote:

Originally posted by the BBQJudge:
Well this is how it is there are some that are there just for free food im sure, that will be a hard problem to fix

Easy fix, everyone leave the cooler at home, that is how I do it.

im sorry you feel im am taking low roads. I am just saying what i feel needs to be said.

quote:

Originally posted by Cook One:

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
Well this is how it is there are some that are there just for free food im sure, that will be a hard problem to fix, as for the judging, i dont know of a good way "to train" a judge except for going to contest and getting familiar with the different ways people cook, i dont understand why you keep crying about the judges, because with out the judges you dont have a contest! i think the only reason you are griping is because you cant win. maybe you should try a new hobby, because it seems to me all you can do is gripe about this one. Im sure im not the only one sick of you whining about the judges.

quote:

Originally posted by David Qualls:

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
seems to me if you deserved 2 more point you would of got them, quit crying and learn how to cook!! That is all good day sir!!

Aren't you a Peach! I didn't read it that he was complaining, its just frustrating that judging BBQ is very subjective. I couldn't give a damn how many contests you may have judged, (assuming you have 20 contests recorded) A one day class and an online refresher does not adequately qualify you to be up to par with the skills involved to be a top cook in todays BBQ World. I'm damn sure not there but then again I practice every weekend and research and test flavor combinations nightly.

What do you do to stay on your game as a "Judge" read a message board, suck up to the event organizer so you can eat, err. judge for "FREE"? Come On, these cooks spend 10's of thousands of dollars to compete and a half/assed BBQ enthusiast shows up with a certificate of one days time and says "I'm an Expert, Learn to Cook Better" You Sir are what's wrong with KCBS judging system. The structure of scoring is good in my opinion. The training of those that administer that structure are way behind the times compared to the skill set of the product they judge.

If you take this comment offensive, Learn to judge, because the way you judged Russ' post probably mirrors your subjectivity in the tent with your crackers and water and ziplock bag...

BBQ Judge
Thanks for proving the point. With an attitude like yours, chances are it is the judges. With the proper approach you could have presented another point of view that the forum may have listened to. But since you took the low road, enjoy the scenery. Someone please pull the plug.

quote:

as for the judging, i dont know of a good way "to train" a judge except for going to contest and getting familiar with the different ways people cook, i dont understand why you keep crying about the judges, because with out the judges you dont have a contest! i think the only reason you are griping is because you cant win. maybe you should try a new hobby, because it seems to me all you can do is gripe about this one. Im sure im not the only one sick of you whining about the judges.

First of all, KCBS could do a better attempt at training judges rather than "Box Trickery" and create some sort of codification of subjectivity. "Getting Familiar" at the expense of the contestants is just plain abuse of the sport and KCBS is at fault here.
Guess What, if it got down to it, there will always be a group of people willing to judge, but will there be a group willing to pay a couple of hundred in entry fees and around a thousand dollars in product and expenses to compete just to be shot down by inadequately trained judges? Would you fly on an airline who is known for only having rookie pilots with only classroom experience and a couple runs around the pattern in a jet, maybe not the one they are going to fly for a living?

As for "Can't Win", Lets see my first run this year was WinterQ last week,

1st in Brisket with 178.8572 (Qualified for Chest to Chest)
15th in Chicken with 170.2858
18th in Ribs with 168.0002
46th in Pork with 161.1426 (No Complaint from me)
and 10th overall out of a field of 59 Teams

I'm pretty confident in my hobby.

Nice to see you joined our forum today.

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
seems to me if you deserved 2 more point you would of got them, quit crying and learn how to cook!! That is all good day sir!!

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
…! i think the only reason you are griping is because you cant win. maybe you should try a new hobby, because it seems to me all you can do is gripe about this one. Im sure im not the only one sick of you whining about the judges.

You sir are the definition of a Forum troll. 4 posts, all in one thread and nothing helpful in your comments.

Care to sign up with a real name, your credentials and proof of your judging? Nope, easy to hide in a forum.

What above is helpful and suggestive to the original intent? Like David said, I would have been more impressed if you came in, discussed and helped explore the topic.

Personal attacks will not be tolerated per the forum policies.

We have fun here, but help and discuss the problem or just go away. You've helped no one but some form an opinion of judges.

Whining, hey, YOU go compete in a contest and get 3rd out of 300+ teams. I'm proud of that. The point about 2 points was to illustrate a concept in a previous post about how judging points can impact a contest. Uh, let's see how many contests do you have? How many have you won? Won any categories? Your definition of success is winning? Probably you're outlook on life.

I'm pretty darn happy with my life, in BBQ and out.

Wow your really zinging me there. Ouch, oh, that really hurt... not. Insulting people just makes you look petty.

Got news for you judge. I'm saying what a LOT of teams say on Friday night. You also represent the judge who thinks you're more important than a cook but just saying it that way. Shoot, we need everyone, from KCBS, to Contest volunteers to the public.

Try to have a contest without a team. How about a team without certified judges? Oh way, you can. I can go get judges off the street like IBCA, so there are alternatives.

quote:

Originally posted by BBQ Judge:
That is true, by the time im done with a contest taking food is not even an option lol.

Maybe for you, but count the coolers at the next contest. Frequently there are more people with coolers than without. I see people take home food they gave a 5 or 6 to.

I never complained about specific judges. As the Bill of Rights allows me to do, I explained that I have issue with the system. FYI, I've also approached KCBS Contest Board Member(s) about this previously and tried to work to implement changes. The predomant theme in training is what is illegal, not what is BBQ.

You can define it and improve the methods. Is it difficult? Certainly. But I haven't seen KCBS really TRY anything to change training. Just same on methods, nothing new. Recurring training? Wow that's real helpful. Teach what's already been taught? Judges like you have already formed your own opinions, and as evidenced by your comments, you're not open to comments or instruction.

Oh, regarding training. I've suggested ideas. As a certified teacher, I know how to train. ALL things can be establsihed. Training doctors is hard. Training BBQ judges shouldn't be, but it is. But if we don't TRY to change, we'll never know well we?

So, you're a judge complaining about feedback from a team? Really? Growth is through feedback and I worked every time I got a score to improve my food. But I'll guarantee you this. Go to a few contests and compete and get handed scores on YOUR food and see what you think. I've mentored a few teams and after they got their scores they all said the same thing.

quote:

Now I get it, now I see what teams are talking about

.

Go spend $1,000 of your own money to compete and some judge comments that he gave you a 6 because of a stray piece of meat smudging the appearance or that they don't like spicey/sweet or whatever. I've heard judges, after scoring chicken, say they don't even like chicken. Now how can THEY give a subjective score?

It's easy for judges to judge (look up the definition) but try to be on the receiving end of something you've worked hard on.

Have I won as much as I'd like? No. I also have a life, family and have made choices to do more than just compete. Not because I can't win. But because I like to help others learn about BBQ.

The fact I have 12 years, 13,000 plus posts shows I'm in it to help others. Taught more the 400 students about BBQ and many other things including volunteering with my own money for a National BBQ organization.

My takeaway opinion of you (BBQ Judge) is a sad one. This is BBQ, it's supposed to be fun. If it's SO SERIOUS that you have to attack me and others for expressing an opinon, then shame on you.

You sir, have trolled the forum and your comments are only designed to inflame, not inform.

Now let's get back to the fun before I have to play moderator.

You hit that one out of the park Russ. Very well stated.

BBQJudge have you ever cooked a sanctioned BBQ competition? How much "backyard" experience do you have cooking Que?

Couple years ago, upon buying a competition legal smoker (FEC100) I set out to try my hand at a KCBS contest. My first priority was to attend a KCBS judging class and get my CBJ #. I KNEW how to cook...just had never presented turn-ins to contest judges.

Fast forward 3 years. I've judged (KCBS) I've cooked (KCBS,IBCA,MBN) and I've won here and there along the way. Point is, I took the time to get my CBJ and judge a few contests before cooking one. Having the benefits of being inside the tent judging and outside the tent cooking makes me a better judge and cook.

How many judges take the time to learn the cooking side of the contest? Have you?

Speaking for myself and a lot of other cooks I know, we would simply like the judges to have a better understanding of what it takes to compete in a competition.

We are a small two man team. My brother and I, and our comp schedule is controlled by my scout schedule, and my nieces volleyball schedule. We've only done about 18 comps in 6 years.

I took Judges class about 7 years ago. It awas a very good calss. for every meat, there were 6 different presentations on each meat. class was asked to judge the meats, then you had to defend high and low scores. the meats were very different in flavors and presentatons. Not all the good looking boxes tasted good, or they might have been tough of dry. It was a real eye opening class.

But My brother took a class I helped to cook for. I asked how we were going to prepare the meats. Rubs, sauces, cooking techniques? But one person cooked all the brisket and pork, during the week, then just warmed it up for the class. There no attempt to trick the class to make them think about how to judge. Boxes may have looked litte different. You know, not enough servings, pooled sauce.

There were two guys who were on my brothers table, and they told him they to judge so they cook eat free BBQ. When it came time to judge boxes they were just all over the place. then they came up with the idea of giving everything as 8. No questions if you were in the middle of the pack.

I think BBQ JUdge said somethng Learn to Cook.

At one comp, we had cover cooked our brisket. Knew it when I sliced it, that is on me. But when I got our score sheet, we had 9's-5's on tenderness. But that wasn't the only thing about the sheet. On taste, we also had 9's-6's. Two judges gave us the 6's and 5's. After reveiwing the sheets, we got with 5 other teams who all had been GC and RGCat other events. They also had wide ranging scores on the score sheets.

There is no way that there should be such a wide range in scores on the same piece of meat.

And then seeing people on the web site listed above, doing the same thing. I really like the ones who say they would not eat the bark on a pork box because it looked burnt. Burnt from a photo?? Really??? Never seen anyone who is getting a turnin box ready get a good pic during a comp.

I think that a judge should first have to compete with a team, or enter his own. For 4 events, then become a judge. They do that for the upper level judges.

RandyE

BBQ Judge where did you go? Loading the coolers? Help us understand your position please.

Oh my!

So much for being out of town a while

Well.......... I've thought a lot about this judging thing over the years. In the beginning I thought...man...kcbs really has it together on training judges for their comps etc. Then.......

In the end.... the ONLY thing a judging class teaches you is what garnish not to use and what tenderness somebody else sez is what bbq is to be. The rest (taste, etc) is up to you. At least this is what I was taught in Ponca City a few years back. For those that were there and disagree.... please correct me. Stuart sat next to me in this class.

Therefore, I've come to really appreciate IBCA in the fact that they grab people off the street. whatever goes .... Yep, is it a crapshoot? HELL YEAH!! they are people!! But! its not fake.... it's real... not pretentious in anyway. They like it or they don't. Just like the real public if you were opening your own Q joint. I can see a life size pic of a KCBS cook opening their own joint then walking around the dining room showin a bite out of a rib or the spring in a slice of brisket!. Now that is a funny memtal picture.

It took a while for me to come to this conclusion.... but that is what it is now. Tomrorrow is another day

In the meantime..... relax

I maybe should not say anything but I have an hour to kill before going back to work and I too have had my trials with judging consistency. It is tough on a team to get 3 judges scoring your Brisket 999 and two who score it with 565 and another 888 with no comment cards. From a competitors standpoint I have to believe in my thoughts and taste to not change a thing as 3 judges were on my same page and hope all other teams get the same table with the critical judges. In a perfect world this would be great but it is what it is and is somewhat of a raffle draw at most competitions with the cream somehow mostly rising to the top. I respect the judges as they do take their time and spend money to judge our contests to the best of their ability for a few bites of food and a pat on the back. When I see a Judge after the contest I first thank them then offer any leftovers I have for them to take home as they are a part of the Family and I know they like BBQ.

The contest Rep has the biggest and most important job in assuring the most fair and impartial judging by screening and taking the extra effort to assess judges experience and qualifications as well as table placement to assure impartial scoring disparities between tables. I have only judged 10 contests but have seen some reps who are extremely diligent in judge standards and placement and others who just want the job completed and tables filled. The Rep is the one responsible to assure fair and impartial judging for everyone and their job is to position judges to tables to assure all teams get a fair score without a rouge table with tough judges or competitor judges. The Rep is only there to assure a fair and impartial competition and most of their efforts needs to be in the same area and not deviated. It is not a perfect system nor all judges like the same thing but with a little knowledge and work by the Reps it will be a better competition. Just my thoughts.

I have been off line for a while, this is a topic I have been discussing with some other teams on tour this year as well. We came up with 2 solutions. First is I plan to judge several contest that I would normally compete in. Second, we talked about getting together and one team only doing chicken, one team only doing ribs, and so forth. Then one team builds 4 chicken boxes, and we all turn in that chicken. Do the same for the ribs, pork and brisket. The point is to send in 4 boxes of the exact same product and see how different they get scored. You folks on the other side of the country might try it as well.

TN while that would be an interesting experiment... It would definitely get you DQed at that contest and likely further punished by KCBS.

Not worth it IMHO. However, if there was a way to "get permission" to do an "experiment." Now that would be really interesting...

KCBS will be able to track individual judges with the new software... now if they will, that's up to them

I would expect the scores to vary as the same people are not judging each box and not everyone's experience will be the same when sampling the products. The nature of the judging system is the subjective opinion of the judges.

I'm with Cal, I think KCBS would DQ you for all entries not being built within your space. Good idea though.

Maybe have a whole contest where we all use the same spices, recipe, etc etc and see how it scores.

We know the answer.

Until there is standardized training and the judges are told what defines good BBQ, then it will always be subjective.

I would love to record all judges comments after they score. In 7+ years of judging, the comments I've heard would seriously affect teams feelings about some judges. They DO bring their own bias to the table, and sometimes admit it after the score. "I don't like sweet, I don't like XXX, so I scored it down" or "it tastes like Blues Hog and I'm tired of that taste"

Judges are people to. They're trying, but without better rules and procedures from KCBS, then they won't be forced to change.

I still would like to have KCBS track judges scores and monitor that.

That's the way it is, for now.

I really wouldn't want a DQ trying the multiple box turn in method. Sounds like I just need to spend time in the judges area and listen and look a lot. I'm sending the other members of my team to judging school. I think that may be a good investment. Thanks

Here's what some judges are thinking....

Judges comment on Sams Club Entries

Long video but there are "interviews" with judges commenting on each category.

Judges really like to visit with the teams, but most are afraid to approach teams because of all the negative comments they have read. Most judges are more then happy to share their feelings of what they look for...ie, texture,flavor, appearance,etc.

Judging in the tent will help break down that barrier for teams, just be prepared to answer some cooking questions, oh well!

quote:

Originally posted by cal:
...what they look for...ie, texture,flavor, appearance,etc.

...

I thought it was up to KCBS what judges should look for

quote:

Originally posted by Smokin':
I thought it was up to KCBS what judges should look for

Yes and NO....We are taught texture and given thoughts on appearance, but NO ONE gave us guidance on taste, instead they said judge as presented by the cook. I think judges see this guidance not quite the same, oh well! How sweet is too sweet, how spicy is too spicy???

Least offensive Que often is what wins/scores well...

Throw the judges a curve ball, you've got a higher chance at "offending" a judge... and watch your scores go down.

This thread has been resurrected from the dead. Is that a good or bad thing?

Over the past year I've grown to appreciate events with ~24 teams. That means that all teams should hit all 4 tables and everyone is on an equal playing field. Large events are absolute crap shoots in my opinion although the top teams will rise to the top there will be some / more luck involved for the eventual winner.

This type of competition is wide open to interpretation and that's where many of our issues lie. I'm sure as cooks many of us will have different opinions on what a perfect tenderness score should be. Although quite a few turn in's may meet the "guidelines" as to what the proper tenderness is, there is a lot more to it than a clean bite or a perfect pull test.

Another part of the problem is new judges have no clue that the 6 they just gave you for being "average" will destroy you rather than place you in the middle. If you get two judges at a table using their guidelines as a reference, you are in trouble.

From KCBS:

4) The scoring system is from 9 to 2, all whole numbers
between two and nine may be used to score an entry.
9 excellent, 8 very good, 7 above average, 6 average, 5
below average, 4 poor, 3 bad, and 2 inedible.