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25 replies

Chicken Help Anyone?

T trucky1008Member
We've been getting consistent scores with three of the 4 categories, in fact this past weekend I finished 1st in Ribs, 2nd in Brisket (lost tiebreaker for 1st) and 5th in Pork. Scores were Ribs= 177.1428, Brisket= 175.4286 and Pork= 168. The FEC100 ROCKS! Now for Chicken= 152. Confused

This has been a consistent theme for us since we started competing last year. With just an average chicken score this weekend I'd most likely have taken GC, but finished 3rd, a point behind RGC. Don't get me wrong, I'm very thrilled with our finish, especially achieving a first category win, but I gotta do something about my chicken.

I've tried scraping the fat from the skin, I've done the butter bath, I've gone boneless, pretty much tried it all. I thought switching over to the BGE and cooking high temp (325) indirect would work, nope!

Here's what I did this past weekend:
1. Trimmed thigh as usual for uniform shape, did not scrap skin since these thighs seem to have very little fat under skin.
2. Marinated using Smoke on Wheels BBQ marinade for 4 hours. I've heard other teams having success with this marinade. I've used it at three comps now.
3. Rubbed with Plowboys about 1 hour ahead of cook time.
4. Got BGE up to 320 steady temp.
5. Thighs on BGE for 40 minutes until they reached 160'ish.
6. Dipped thighs in sauce (50/50 Blues Hog Orig. & BH Ten Red).
7. Back on BGE for 15 min to set sauce and finish temp of 175.
8. After picking out my 6 thighs I re-apply a light coating of warmed sauce and turn in.

I'd really like to know what the judges are looking for- Cal you got any ideas for me? Last weekend I threw a foil puch of pecan pellets in the BGE and the chicken was WAY oversmoked and I was certain I'd finish DAL, amazingly I finished 12th of 36 teams with a score of 166. Maybe it's about the smoke flavor?

I know you all spend alot of time and money developing your recipes, so I'm not asking for anyone to provide a recipe, just maybe a few pointers is all. I've been to two cooking classes and tried those methods as well with very little success. I bet I've read every "comp chicken" thread the net has to offer. Anyway, I'd appreciate any pointers you might have for me. Thanks all!
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FM Former Member
Personally I think you're copying too many other flavors and not going with something for yourself.

Everything you mention is something I see in blogs and forums about what people are using.

What were your scores, exactly. 166 isn't bad, that just tells me it's a tenderness point or two. Were they all 9's. How about flavor?

Tell me the scores and we'll discuss.

Oh, and while I don't compete now, I won a lot with chicken and it was brining, not marinading that did it for me.
M maxqMember
This comes from a guy who's judged once and has been part of 6 chicken turn-ins...2 of 'em under IBCA judging criterion, which calls for a half of chicken.

When I judged, 3 of the samples looked and tasted the same. My guess is this happens a lot so you need something to set yours apart from the other 5. The piece I scored highest (9) had a great sweet/heat profile with noticeable smoke. The Plowboys (I assume you used Bovine) should have provided the heat kick as will the BH Red. I know Andy scored a 180 using his marinade last year though I haven't tried it yet.

Hate to say it but I've read on other forums where judges will intentionally down score Blues Hog. Maybe try a difference sweet/heat sauce profile? Tiger Sauce for heat and ____ for sweet?

Smoke: Maybe something more subtle than Pecan? Apple or Cherry? I wouldn't be afraid of smoke as long as it's not overpowering.

It sounds like you did everything right. Do you happen to have a pic of your turn in box?

GREAT scores on the ribs and brisket!!

Good luck on your next contest.
T tomMember
Cookin' is a mite frustratin' when one category keeps killin' ya.

When we started,top cooks told us to go to judging school.I realize you might not have one close.

Most experienced judges come out of contests saying they can tell which cooking class everyone seems to have attended.Same look,trim,color,rub,sauce,box,etc.
Cooks, that are experienced judges,tend to focus more on how the product was cooked than the many of the things above.

Do you have mostly CBJ s?
They often get real involved in all the things we learned in school.In TX,and other areas without many CBJs it is how does it eat.


Someone mentioned stand apart.

Blueshog is a lot more popular with cooks in your area than down South, and the overall flavor profile seems built around it.
Good,or bad?

Have you tried a couple hrs brine,instead of the marinade?
Smokin' is the Master for many in the bbq business.

Like Smokin' says,it sounds like a lot of recipes mixed together.As usual,sweet with just a little back heat seems to be all the winners' approach.

Seems folks like the "bbq/grill" effect the egg can give,rather than the drowned in sauce chicken that a lot see.

Seems like it is easy to oversmoke chicken.
Apple,peach,even cherry might be a thought.

If the guys that taught your class are winning chicken,I'd ask them in a heartbeat to critique your entry.Send them a picture,explain the process.

I know this isn't much,so good luck.
T trucky1008Member
quote:
Originally posted by SmokinOkie:

What were your scores, exactly. 166 isn't bad, that just tells me it's a tenderness point or two. Were they all 9's. How about flavor?



Total score was 152.0000, here's the judges scoring:
787,778,887,878,878,788

The flavor was pretty good, thinking back on it I'd say it might have lacked a bit of heat, but it certainly had the sweet side to it. I felt that tenderness was very good, very moist and not mushy.

I have tried brining a few times but didn't see much a difference in my scors. I'm certainly going to give it a try again. Thanks for the feedback.
T trucky1008Member
quote:
Originally posted by MaxQue:

The Plowboys (I assume you used Bovine) should have provided the heat kick as will the BH Red.

Hate to say it but I've read on other forums where judges will intentionally down score Blues Hog. Maybe try a difference sweet/heat sauce profile? Tiger Sauce for heat and ____ for sweet?

Smoke: Maybe something more subtle than Pecan? Apple or Cherry? I wouldn't be afraid of smoke as long as it's not overpowering.

Do you happen to have a pic of your turn in box?

GREAT scores on the ribs and brisket!!

Good luck on your next contest.


Max- I used Yardbird and not Bovine Bold. I agree on the Blues Hog comment, there's a LOT of teams using it and switching to something else might be what I need to help mine stand out. I stated in my original post that I used pecan for smoke, I actually used cherry pellets in the foil pouch and not pecan.

No pic of the turn-in, my camera wouldn't snap the shot and we were up against the clock so I didn't want to mess with it.

Thanks.
T trucky1008Member
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:

When we started,top cooks told us to go to judging school.I realize you might not have one close.

Do you have mostly CBJ s?

Like Smokin' says,it sounds like a lot of recipes mixed together.As usual,sweet with just a little back heat seems to be all the winners' approach.

I know this isn't much,so good luck.


I did take a CBJ class 2 months ago, just haven't had time to judge any comps yet. My plan is to judge at least 2 this summer.

The comp had 81% CBJ's.

I agree that I've got many recipes mixed together, I need to work on my own.

Thanks Tom.
R ribdogMember
From some of your comments, I would offer the following thoughts.

First, if you are going to use Blues Hog, you might consider straining it before you use it. It seems to me that a number of judges, yours truly included, do not like a gritty feel when you take a bite of chicken. Nothing against BH but something to consider.

Second, you make a comment about it possibly needing a little more heat. Just make sure that it is back of the mouth type heat and not up front on the lips type of heat. The heat should be one that adds another layer of flavor instead of just providing heat. One way I do that is to add some cayenne to my finishing sauce. But only add enough that when you take a taste of the sauce, you can barely feel the heat in the sauce.

Just some thoughts.
T trucky1008Member
quote:
Originally posted by RibDog:
From some of your comments, I would offer the following thoughts.

First, if you are going to use Blues Hog, you might consider straining it before you use it.

One way I do that is to add some cayenne to my finishing sauce. But only add enough that when you take a taste of the sauce, you can barely feel the heat in the sauce.

Just some thoughts.


Those are some great pointers. I have been straining the BH Tennessee Red never thought about straining the original but I can see where it would help to eliminate any gritty feel.

Adding a bit of cayenne to the finishing sauce is something I never considered. Thanks for the suggestion.

Don
T tomMember
The tasting of that cayenne ,as mentioned,is also important.Most cayennes can go bad quick.

As we do a lot of chili, and Cajun cooking,as well,we've learned that different cayennes can range from about 30,000 to 120,000 Scovilles.
We have had them "bite" us, by using measure-instead of final tasting.

We might also have a couple neighbor cooks,that we respect,taste a practice run on Friday night.

Also,with that many CBJ s,they can be really picky on the detail in that box.

I realize that those three sevens for appearance only count about 1/7 of the score,but older judges can feel that it looks bad,but rather than insulting the cook,they know that a seven pretty much takes you out of a walk.

They drop one of the sevens,but the other three eights are still a little weak with old 9,8,7 judges.

Early on,we were taught that the only given in our box was that possible nine for appearance.

Maybe,take a couple spare clamshells and let those respected cooks check them out?

These are nitpicking,but that is the game at the top. Eeker
Last edited by tom
cal 2cal 2Member
When I see 7's it tells me that they are just average on appearance. It's really hard to pinpoint without some pics and then it sometimes is hard to tell, cause in person it will look better.

If you're off on texture, it could influence your taste scores a little...I know, it shouldn't, but sometimes life is a little unfair when dealing with variables/judges.

If you took Rods class, I'd do just what Tom stated. Put some in a clamshell and ask him for some thoughts about it.
T trucky1008Member
I normally take pics but my camera wasn't working. I did use my cellphone for a pic but it's basically worthless. To be honest, I don't have any issues with the appearance score, I think the judges were on track. There were lots of larger spice pieces in the sauce that I belive affected the look.

Thanks all for the input, you've helped a bunch.
T tomMember
Yep,larger spice pieces can certainly be noticed by many CBJ s.Also,early on,I learned that although I like heat-front,back,and in between,most don't.The feared"lil' ol' lady" gets one pepper granule in the back off her mouth and she starts to cough.You look around the table and see the taste/tenderness scores start to dive. Eeker

Like cal says a seven can mean average-or the judge is too nice to punish the cook with a five.We know that shouldn't have an effect on the next scores-but?

Some great scoring cooks taught us to run coarse spices thru our burr grinder.Not always a problem,but one more gamble.
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Trucky1008:
Total score was 152.0000, here's the judges scoring:
787,778,887,878,878,788


Well 152 is well off of where you said 166, so not sure where that # came from. Here's what I see when I look at it:

Appearance: 778887
Taste: 878778
Tenderness 787888

Your taste is where you're looking the more points (7's) and you're right in the hunt, you're just now wowing anyone as you've had no 9's. Overall if you can get your 8's up to 9's and your 7's up to 8's you'll hit.

Work on LITTLE things. You're close, so don't get too far from what you have.

Work on 9's for tenderness, you need more 9's to win. That has nothing to do with your flavor profile so you can work on it easy enough. You'll have to figure out what's happening, but usually a little overcooked on chicken (without drying out) will help it be more tender. BUT, you could be getting judge down for skin (which personally has nothing to do with KCBS tenderness on chicken, but don't get me started on chicken judges)

One thing about brining and "not seeing a difference in my score" is that brining will extend the high point of your cooking temp and allow it to go a little higher. Also, if you didn't notice any difference, maybe try a different brine. I get a LOT of email over the years thanking me from brining 101 and helping people win, so I know it wins.
FM Former Member
Id first get those appearance scores up. You'll win with taste/tenderness but you're not even in the race with 7's.

Your next cook leave a couple pieces out and check its appearance after 15 or 20 min. See what it looks like when the judges look at it.

And second Im thinking you're over done. Try a batch at 160, baste and pull at 165. Then compare.
T trucky1008Member
quote:
Originally posted by SmokinOkie:
quote:
Originally posted by Trucky1008:
Total score was 152.0000, here's the judges scoring:
787,778,887,878,878,788


Well 152 is well off of where you said 166, so not sure where that # came from. Here's what I see when I look at it:

Appearance: 778887
Taste: 878778
Tenderness 787888

Your taste is where you're looking the more points (7's) and you're right in the hunt, you're just now wowing anyone as you've had no 9's. Overall if you can get your 8's up to 9's and your 7's up to 8's you'll hit.

Work on LITTLE things. You're close, so don't get too far from what you have.

Work on 9's for tenderness, you need more 9's to win. That has nothing to do with your flavor profile so you can work on it easy enough. You'll have to figure out what's happening, but usually a little overcooked on chicken (without drying out) will help it be more tender. BUT, you could be getting judge down for skin (which personally has nothing to do with KCBS tenderness on chicken, but don't get me started on chicken judges)

One thing about brining and "not seeing a difference in my score" is that brining will extend the high point of your cooking temp and allow it to go a little higher. Also, if you didn't notice any difference, maybe try a different brine. I get a LOT of email over the years thanking me from brining 101 and helping people win, so I know it wins.


The 166 score was from a different contest I was talking about where I thought I had way oversmoked the thighs and got a fairly decent score.

I agree with you on making little changes. I think part of my problem is I haven't spent enough time on any one recipe to know exactly where I need improvements. I've been changing recipes from one contest to the next without really getting a baseline.

Based on the feedback I've received it's apparent that I've been undercooking my chicken. I've been pulling them at 165-170 and I think I need to be more in the 180-190 range for proper tenderness. I think I know what needs to be done with my taste as well.

Thanks for the feedback.
FM Former Member
He stated in his first post that he is cooking to 175 and that is not working, he scored a 152.

trucky, you just need practice. trim some chicken of large amounts of fat and forget the contest stuff for a bit. Pull some at 160 (USDA recomendation), pull some at 170, 180, 190. But most importantly look and feel what the meat is like at each temp. I think you'll find some will be done at 165 and some wont be done until 180. Its no different than a brisket ... its done when its done.

Disclaimer .... my chicken sucks. :-)

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