Cooking Hot & Fast and Charcoal Pellets Questions

I have 40 lbs of the charcoal pellets, but have yet to try them. I was gonna use them on my PG500 for chicken whenever it arrives. It is my understanding that they WILL burn hotter, so I'd guess less pellets used will mean less smoke?

As far as ribs for comps, the ones I cook at 250* on my FEC are as good as any that I've tasted as a judge. I did judge the Sam's regional last year and the American Royal invitational, so I guess I've tasted decent/good comp ribs?

How is the hot and fast cooking working?

quote:

How is the hot and fast cooking working?

Cal, Thanks for Asking. I did two full loads of Butts at 325 and they came out really good. Bark was thin but tasty and great for the fundraiser.

I have done ribs two different times at 275-300 and really had no smoke flavor and While they passed the toothpick test, they didn't please me at all on taste and actually after they rested and cooled got somewhat tough. They were a hormel St. Louis Style that was pre-trimmed and around 3lbs. Rubbed with Butcher's Honey rub. I didn't foil them.

I have cooked two packer briskets in the 12-14 range. Sad to say but they were only select as that was what the store had. I did pick the two that seemed to have a good flex to them.

I cooked both at 300 and checked temp at 195 and they passed the probe test in both the flat and point.

The first was injected with Butchers Brisket & Prime Dust with apple Juice and rubbed with Bovine Bold. I did place it in a Pan and foiled it after two hours.
After 1 1/2 rest it was tender but had that iridescent prism color in the meat. when sliced. It was tender but still tight like it hadn't really broke down like it should have. Not much bark to speak of and for the most part tasted like roast instead of brisket.

The second brisket (about same size and select)no pan and no foil, I injected with Butchers along with Prime dust with no salt added Beef Broth. I rubbed this one with a "Dalmatian" concotion which was koser Salt, Pepper, a little granulated Onion and same amount of Granulated Garlic. (kind of a Pop Daddy's idea. I had plenty of bark from the heavy rub but the inside wasn't very tender and broken down again and while I didn't have the rainbow. It was very roast tasting with no Butcher Injection taste, and way too salty tasting. I used equal 1/4 cup each of onion & garlic, and 1 cup each of koser salt and cracked black pepper. these were purely experimental cooks and I didn't cook either to depend on as a meal or snack etc..

The best I can tell on Hot & Fast is that traditional finish temps for brisket (195-200) and while passing the probe test is still not hot enough for the connective tissue to be truly broken down. It seems to defy the physics of what all I read about low and slow and breakdown windows.

I'm open to any suggestion and willing to try and try again....

Thanks!

I'm not a hot and fast cook, but do know some cooks seem to get a fine product by cooking like this. As a judge the biggest problem that I run into is the collagen not rendering out of the product, which seems to be what you are talking about. It's hard to describe, but the brisket should sorta snap as you pull it apart, instead of stretching before pulling apart.

I'd guess your finish temp is rather low for the temps your cooking at and I'd suggest a good 4hr or better rest in the warmest place you can find(FTC). It seems that the rest is what tenderizes the brisket and continues the breaking down of the collagen.

Good luck and tell me how the charcoal pellets work out. I've read that some folks try breaking them up a little by dropping the bag, they do look quite long for pellets.

Thanks Cal,

I do know the snap and that is one of the things missing. I have a good cambro and will let the next on rest for a longer period.

Thank You

Just a thought, but a discussion about Hot and Fast will get lost in the thread about charcoal pellets.

I say that because it's a good discussion to be had.

And what is this "rainbow" effect. Sorry, I'm not up on that trend in briskets.

I just finished a 20# bag of the charcoal pellets.
Seem to burn just fine with no excess ash and good BTU's.
"Typical" smoke ring for my cooking process.

Cooked steaks, pork chops, and chicken parts at various times on the Traeger Lil Tex.

I cook not tell any flavor difference.
Mrs KAPN said she could taste a faint charcoal taste that was a pleasant reminder of the "old days" of cooking on charcoal.

I think others will just need to buy a bag and make their own decision.
They certainly burn nice and may have uses for others.

TIM

quote:

And what is this "rainbow" effect. Sorry, I'm not up on that trend in briskets.

Iridescence in meats

Smokin, You're right on the hidden thread.

I will put something together and start a new discussuon.

Thanks.

Thanks for the link, but is it something you're looking for when you cook/eat your brisket? It almost sounded that way in your post above.

I'd just not heard it as a Checkpoint for my brisket.

Oh well, it's not something I'm "looking" for when I cook briskets

But thanks for the linkbcause I do like to read up on Food Science type stuff.

Your post made it sound like an objective you look for when cooking brisket.

I have less refined goals... just good eatin'

What I meant was that after the rest, it was tender but,,, it had that iridescent sheen on the meat, Which I think looks BAD... reminds me of something spoiled.

I was afraid that the hot method had caused it. After some more investigation, it could have had that issue (the prism sheen) because of factors at the packing facility and the quailty of the cow it came from.

its no checkpoint nor is it something I want. I know sauce will hide it but then again ....

I was just concerned that it was an "Un-documented Feature" of the Hot & Fast Style.

Side Note: An old friend who was a software developer always referred to glitches in the Windows software as another Microsoft "Un-Documented Feature" LOL

David

I've not used charcoal pellets but I have cooked hot and fast brisket in the FEC100 a number of times. I've never had any odd irridescent finish to the meat.

Sounds like you had a lot going on - between the charcoal pellets to the injection and rub. Seems like it could have been a number of variables but I don't think the high temperature was the problem.

Thanks Ken. I kind of hijacked my own thread as I haven't used the charcoal pellets yet.

I think the brisket may have been stressed as I have read before the kill and pack.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Golden:
David

I've not used charcoal pellets but I have cooked hot and fast brisket in the FEC100 a number of times.

Do you care to share your hot and fast method?

Pretty straightforward...

Stay away from heavily sugar based rubs because the sugar can't stand uo to the high heat. Cookshack Brisket Rub works perfectly. Fat side down on the middle rack. Sometimes I cook at 350 but most times I cook at 325 so I have a little more control.

Once it hits 180 you have to watch it closely because your margin of error is much tighter. I tend to declare it done around 190 (of course it can vary) because of concerns about carryover heat.

A 14 pound brisket might take 6 hours max and that's a beautiful thing. Always get a nice smoke ring and I haven't noticed a significant difference in the flavor profile.

As far as the shorter cook length it makes it much easier to have brisket for dinner. If I'm making a packer cut low and slow its going to take 15-18 hours. I have to start the cook around 2am the night before. If I start any earlier the brisket is done early afternoon and has to sit wrapped in a chest for hours on end. That's ok but my preference is to just keep it wrapped for no more than 2 hours. I can start a hot and fast cook around noon the same day.

I've had more consistent success with traditional low and slow primarily because you can micro-manage the cook better. Having said that the best hot and fast cooks have been as good as my best low and slow.

Sorry if I derailed the thread.

David,

You've got to stop posting these good questions inside a thread, start a new one. The topics are great questions like this one, but as many don't use the search function, they'll miss the post.

Okay, enough moderator, I'll go ahead and answer.

Me, use whatever you want. I'm not such a stickler than I'm going to argue what is or isn't correct. We'll just try to help where we can.

Could of issues to be aware of "hot and fast".

1. The "done" window. It will hit and fly through that zone because you're cooking hot. If you don't watch it, and walk away, it can shoot from 190 to 210 real fast.

2. Bark. Ken hit on it. Higher temps WILL have an effect, not just on sugars, but all rub components. Many rubs lose flavor as they cook, and it appears to be a bigger impact if it's higher.

3. Tenderness. The "done" temp varies at the higher temps. I've seen more than a few comments that they cooked to what they thought was tender, but when they cut it is wasnt'. The effect of speed/high temp cooking does change it. It's a just do it and learn thing to figure out the change itself.

I edited my original topic and did some edit to the initial post.

Maybe this makes more sense. My mind does tend to wander when I'm multitasking and hungry for Brisket!

What you do when your done cooking is gonna come into consideration when deciding what temps are done. Are you gonna use a fan to stop the cooking,just lay on a table for 20 minutes or so, or are you gonna let it keep cooking while it's resting...just no easy answer without practicing, seems like a lot more variables to try to duplicate time after time. I was taught that you try to find a schedule/method that you can become CONSISTENT with, that is the main reason I'm not a hot and fast cook, well mostly the reason.

Cal,

I have a brisket in the cambro resting right now. I went straight from the FEC to the cambro. It was 205 and its 1 1/2 hours later and its 191 (I left a polder in it) I will post more later. I did this one exactly as Myron described in his book but in the FEC..

I will wait until I've got it out and cut and post this chapter of the saga.

I took pics before and will get a pick after the rest.

I just finished another Hot & Fast test Brisket.
I can sum it up in one word: "WOW!"

The facts:
FEC100
Cookshack Hickory Pellets
BBQr's Delight Hickory Smoke Stix placed in a SS cup on the firepot.
15 lb Select Grade Packer from Sam's Club
Injected with Butcher's Brisket Injection with Prime Dust and Apple Juice as the liquid
Rubbed with Kosmo's Cow Cover (first time to use)

I injected the brisket and poured the excess on the brisket and put in refrigerator until next day.
About 11 hours later I took out of Refrigerator and thoroughly rubbed the entire brisket with the Kosmo's Cow Cover.

I cooked the brisket as described in Myron Mixon's book titled "Smokin'"

Brisket went on in a pan (full Size medium depth disposable steam pan)at 12 noon and at 2:30pm I put a polder probe in the point and double wrapped the pan and cooked until probe read 205.
almost exactly 1 1/2 hours later (4pm) Polder read 205. I pulled and put pan still wrapped directly in Cambro to rest.
I let it rest for 3 hours at which time the polder read 174.

I took it out poured off the juice and let it set for about 15 minutes on the cutting board before sclicng.

PROS:
1) Flavor was excellent. A little spicy for backyard but I didn't sauce it or dredge sliced pieces in its juice which I think would tone down the spice of the rub.
2) Moist...Moist...Moist!

CONS:
1) Bark wasn't set like it should. I think I should have drained off the liquid in the pan and uncovered when it went into the cambro.
2) I would have liked more smoke ring but it is a FEC in Hot Mode at 350...
3) I think it was overcooked by KCBS standards. I was able to find an area that had the "Snap" if it were a competition cook. I think I should have checked and then pulled it at around 200 but I waited until the 205 per Myron's Book. It was 1 1/2 hour just like he said.

I have read that the Done Window in narrow in hot and fast and I think this is true. it seemed to zip from 170 (when I covered after 2hours) to 205 I was just listening for my Polder alarm and didn't poke and prod at it any earlier than the 205 alarm. I will definately change the start time to begin the "Doness Test"

Here are some pictures during the process;

Packer Trimmed


After Injected

Ready to Slice and kind of Ugly

Sliced Product

I would really appreceiate your comments/Advice!

Good report,

Some thoughts on your CONS:

1) Bark. I think it's the pan. Pans tend to restrict airflow with the high sides and such. The only good point of a pan is that you collect all the grease (but I don't know why you would want to). Beef juices yes, grease no.

2) 205? In the point? trust me, Myron didn't put his secrets in that book. Also, he's not using an FE. Adjust the temp to your end result (which I think you found out). If I cook a brisket to 205 and hold it with normal method it will be overcooked, but hot and fast I see people cooking to higher temps. With all the fat in the point, that's the last place I use for the temp point UNLESS that's where you are cutting your slices. IF this is for comps (must be if you're follwoing Myron's book) then I would put the probe where you will be slicing from (typically the center cut of the flat).

3) Smoke Ring. Don't get me started... although KCBS says don't grade the SR, MANY judges (newbies and old farts) still just BBQ by the SR. I know for a fact of a few temps, with stick burners and WSM's and FE's that will add some TQ to their rub to make sure they don't get points knocked off.

Keep in mine, if it's for contest. Taste is twice as many points as tenderness which is twice as many as appearance.

Also, you CAN post the photos directly in your post if you want to.

I clicked on the picutre. A pop-up window comes up. I selected large (go for the next size down).

RIGHT CLICK the picture and get the full URL length with .jpg at the end

it will be something like this "http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7034/6650397015_61297c1ab1_z.jpg"

Inside your thread, click on the icon that looks like a picture frame and paste that full URL and it will look like this:

You can also add an image manually by adding a [IMG] directly in front of a URL and an [/URL] at the end (no spaces)

That longest piece appears to have a nice looking texture, but looks can be deceiving. I've heard a few cooks tell of picking a piece up and laying it by the middle over your finger. They would like to see it sag over the finger without it breaking apart.

Wondered if before rubbing you used a paper towel to dry the brisket of extra injection? I've noticed that my smoke ring is larger when this is done.

I've not seen Myron cook, but have heard that his smoker will be more of a steam type of cooker.

Thanks for sharing pics!

Smokin,

I think you are correct about the Pan It seems to baste more than usual. Myron may be able to pan his because he uses Wyagu and it doesnt produce the Quart of Juice/Fat that this one did.

I usually put the probe in the flat like you mentioned. It's strange but, the point and flat temp seem to stay pretty even on my tests.

Smoke Ring..... You are absolutely correct. I even seem to think it tasted like roast unless I see that ring, I have mixed emotions about faking a smoke ring with TQ.

CAL,

That long piece was the first slice from the end and then I cut the flat in half for shorter slices. It was good but had the outside edge on it.

I didn't wipe the excess Marinade off of it before I rubbed and that probably is a major part of the bark setting up.

His uses a water bath and I think on my next one I'm going to skip the water pan. It was a trial think. I think the way the FEC is designed, it retains enough humidity any way.

Thanks Guyf for your input!

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinOkie:
Thanks for the link, but is it something you're looking for when you cook/eat your brisket? It almost sounded that way in your post above.

I'd just not heard it as a Checkpoint for my brisket.

Oh well, it's not something I'm "looking" for when I cook briskets

But thanks for the linkbcause I do like to read up on Food Science type stuff.

Your post made it sound like an objective you look for when cooking brisket.

I have less refined goals... just good eatin'

Smokin,
A lot of times, the candlewood sliced angus beef packs at sams have this feature. At first I was concerned because I use it in my cafe but a little research proved it was ok. I don't think I have ever seen it in a brisket that I've cooked though.

Have some of the charcoal pellets and have only cooked sliders on the 500 with them. Good old fashion charcoal flavor. Don't think I would use them for competition though.

Smoke Ring is a whole nother subject and actually is better on a propane smoker grill or if you use green wood in a stick burner. I think one of the TX cooks who use the FE use green mesquite logs on a rack to improve the ring and smoke flavor in competition.

Hot & fast is somewhat reminesent of cupcake chicken. It finished somewhat low in the stadings if I recall. There are several good papers out there on hot and fast from a scientific point of view and the best one was posted on the breathern site, I think is where I read it.

I know Myron Mixon is a bit of an icon in the BBQ world so my comment may come as heresy.

At last year's Big Apple BBQ, after waiting an hour to eat Chris Gibson's pork shoulder, I couldn't figure out why there was no line for Jack's Old South's brisket. One taste and you knew why. It was moist sure but so was my mother's pot roast...which had a similar taste. It didn't taste like brisket. I mentioned this in my Akaushi brisket post - if this is what competition BBQ is all about I don't want any part of it.

Just my opinion but Myron Mixon's brisket is not something I would aspire to cook. Now on the other hand Chris Gibson's pulled pork was transcendental...

Ken,

I took Myron's class last year. And I would have stood in line a long time to get it again. But what he does in public isn't what we had in class. And the stuff he pits on in his class would be too costly to do in mass production.

But I have a friend who ate in his restraunt and didn't care for it at all. My friend asked him about the food, and he said the same thing. Couldn't do comp food in a store. But it's closed now.

David, thought your stuff looked very good. But with the carry over, I think pulling it at even 195 may be the way to go. I have always been told the higher the cook temp the more carry over. And cooking at 350 that could be a 10 degree carry over.

But just too help you. Send the next test one my way????????


RandyE

Thanks Randy,

I think i will pull around 195.

I have friend that told me you can learn to cook good BBQ. But you have to learn to cook consistent BBQ if you're going to open a BBQ Joint and Good isn't synonymous with consistent.

I will mail you a slice next time in a Baggie!

Well. Myron himself answered my question on pans and put half of the puzzle together for me in that post.

Thread on BBQ FOrum

David, great post about the brisket. I tried hot and fast (300 - 350) on about 10 briskets and was never able to get it where I wanted it. Part of my other issue is I'm using one FEC for all my comp meats so my temps are dictated by all the meats.

Ten degrees is a massive difference when it comes to brisket. My thought is to try pulling it at 200 and see if you need to dial it in some more. I do know that If I pull a brisket and it's too high by one or two degrees and after it rests for 3-4 hours it will be overcooked. Perhaps it's only a few degrees that you need to adjust?

Scott,

At this point, I'm using one FEC for comp. I'm working on times and considering a small WSM for chicken. But I think I can work it all into one cooker with the right timing and using a cambro