Question for you guys that compete......

todd
myself i think you have opened up a bigger can of worms than the "which do you prefer fba or kcbs" thread to which i say good on ya mate!!!!
now since i got my head handed to me on the fba vs kcbs thing here is my take on your question.
i think there is a very good reason peggy's sm150 is not allowed in any competitions EXCEPT for american bbq association and it is just what you have pointed out above. she has experimented with her sm to the point that taking her notes she can duplicate anything she has ever done with her sm every time. i am getting near that with my fec but the biggest thing is knowing what the judges want not are you cooking a good product but that also is part of competition.
from what i have seen so far fba doesnt want much heat but tell you what go to thier site and pull up the pics from winter haven and i'll bet you get the same idea i do. or to be really blunt, i met a female judge there who not only didnt know what a pellet was, she didnt know how to cook as she proudly boasted through her loose denteures, which explains how my way over cooked brisket got what it got a few comps ago!!!!!! this however doesnt make her a bad judge. but, you as a competitor, must know what the judges are looking for. to this day i feel that i have been judged fairly and consistantly and it is up to me to learn exactly what the judges want.
so to make a long story short comp winner butts do not necessarily equate to good eatting butts but always remember you are cooking for the judges. as far as your get six sm360 idea goes i will give you this as fodder for thought. where i work we have southern prides. fine units they are too. but it is the man operating them that counts as each appliance is different. same thing holds true for the fec or the sm. you have to keep notes and really get in sync with your cooker to turn out good stuff every day!!!! so yep the pit guy still rules and you need him no matter what you have.
well i know this should bring them outta the woodwork and again thanks for a really good question that made me think!!!!
jack

HEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I sleep on the floor of my rig!!!!!
gotta show the brisket and butts ya really care!!!!!
plus with that 5 foot hood suckin' wind who needs air conditioning???
jack
sorry just had to

todd
by the way i never looked at your profile before but now i understand why i felt in sync with you.
heck i think you and i are the only guys in the south that like real race cars!!!!
so who is going to be F1 champ this year???
my money is on schuii!!!
but peg is still moaning the loss of heinz harold!!!!
jack
ps. what does this have to do with smoking?? just this. my brother lives 2 miles west of the speedway. he knows the guy who gets 5 bucks per turkey leg at the F1 race and last year he went thru 1000 pounds of them just for the F1 race. he does the 500 also but wont do the taxi race. says it is sacrilege for a taxi to be on the track at indy!!!!!!

Hi Jack,
You know, I was actually thinking of you last night when they showed one of the Wood Chicks(I think that was their team name) sacking in for the night on the floor. That did not look comfortable. You and I are about the same size, and I've got corners on me I didn't have 20 years ago that like and maybe even require some cushion. I MUST be getting old, but a foam pad would sure make the night go by faster I think. Also started thinking about the second night, and what the floor experience would be like after a day of foot traffic and pork grease.

I've mentioned before the difference I see between the butts from BJ's(Smithfield) and the butts I have access to from a local hog supply company. The BJ butts are very consistent in their fat content, and the meat is almost the color of good veal(very light pink). The local hog suppliers meat looks wild by comparison(but both are untreated). Much darker, almost like beef, and with noticable streaks of fat, but not more fat overall, and a very different texture, almost like they've been exercised.

In any case, I see more variation between the final cooked product from these two suppliers than I can "force" between two BJ butts from different cooking sessions. Once I learned to cook by temp and not time(which took about a week), I think the butts I've cooked have been near identical every time, which I credit to the CS. It just seems that they're so high in quality, I was wondering if there was some as yet untouched level I should shoot for. I never did get the results I would want from the local suppliers meat.

My thinking behind the question was inspired by a friend of mine that was telling me how good the BBQ was at a competition event he attended in Chicago last summer. He went on and on about it, and I just kept asking myself how much better it could be than the typical output from the CS.

Your comments about judging illustrate one of the reasons why I didn't buy a rig myself last year. Trying to cook to please a group of judges would drive me crazy. It seems like the competition circuit would take a couple of years to learn before one could expect to become really effective, sort of like race car drivers need some time to learn the tracks. BTW, the other reason I didn't buy a rig last year was because I wanted to wait and see how you and Peggy do things. Your approach seems to be very well thought out and organized. We used to do high volume pig pickin's in a couple of states, but I don't want to do that anymore. I would like to do some competitions and some general(other than BBQ) catering on a larger scale than I do now, but I don't see where the profit is unless I want to go back to doing more widespread events and just do the comps to drive business my way. I'd be happy if I could just break even on the events as a hobby, but I'd still have to justify a $30K+ rig for a limited number of events/catering jobs. If I can ever make the numbers work though, I think I'll take the dive even though all I want is a hobby, not another job.

It's funny, I used the race car reference in the post above before I read your post mentioning racing. I was thinking about F1 drivers learning the tracks when they first go to Europe.

As much as I loved Senna, and Niki Lauda, and Jackie Stewart before them, I have to say that I think Michael Schumacher is the best driver to ever drive a modern F1 car. I think the race he won in '93 where he drove virtually the entire race at Portugal in 5th gear was the single best driving performance I have ever seen in any form of racing. Unless Ferrari has really lost speed, rumored but unlikely I think, he's my favorite to win again this year. Anybody but Montoya!!!!

I'm just hoping that F1 dosen't get totally screwed up in the next couple of years like CART/IRL. The GPWC group has some good ideas, and F1 could use a little shake up, but I'd hate to see a split between the manufacturers like happened in open wheel racing here. I think these guys need to eat more BBQ so they won't be so stressed all the time.

I'm not sure that there was a question,that needed answering-but a couple of thoughts.

drbbq may chime in here,but I'm not sure there has been a sanctioned cook in Chicago.

The Smithfield butts that we get around here are typically injected with 12 % solution.

That helps them with that color.

The size of butts at a box store is fairly consistent,because they are buying cases of butts that run 60-65 lbs.


As for diminishing returns,the cooking is pretty good at that level and usually consistent-no matter what is thrown in the cook's way.

The Jack is judged by celebrity judges,that may have had their share of adult beverages.

There is typically a Master Certified BBQ Judge as the Table Capt ,and also as the asst.

Most cookteams have at least one CBJ, and maybe more,so they have an idea what a judging table is looking for.

Although taste & tenderness scores should not be affected by the appearance score,many folks eat with their eyes first.

Top cookteams consider these first points as "given" and work hard to achieve them.

The Royal and Jack are also"non comparison" judging,so the cook is cooking towards a standard.

Understanding the subjective nature of life.

A major part of the teams' life is getting those four meats,in garnished boxes,at their exact peak,at that 10 min window, each half hour.

Yep,the CS is very consistent,but all those little details are what makes the cook IMO.

Just my $0.02

todd
sorry it took so long to respond to your last post but i was polishing the rig floor with mequairs billet aluminum polish and thinking about the contest in okeechobee next weekend.
as far as my fav F1 drivers go I still like jack brabbham since he did say hi kid to me at indy in 61 i think. but to this day i still like nigel mansel. no class, no style but man he got it done. past that hunt the shunt was great to watch but schuui is like aj foyt was, good, confident and not apologetic lol.
on the color difference of pork that is, from what i understand a function of breed, and really doesnt affect taste. as i remember my great uncles poland chinas always dressed out whiter than the hampshires but both tasted good!!!
as far as the comps go. it is a lot like racing and at times i feel it might be fixed just like nascar is but peg and i love doing it and to be honest it sure is fun watching her put together her chicken box. i still dont cook for judges and i had a few teams tell me not to be so responsive on the internet as "it may affect my scores" but hey i thought the judging was double blind so i didnt pay that much attention.
currently the shoulders i am using comes from indiana pork pakers out of napany, ind and i have asked my food purveyor to keep giving me those!!!
can cooking for judges drive ya nuts???m only if you do that lol!!!
\jack
ps as far as looks goes lets face it graham hill had the right look. really kewl RAF mustachee and neat accent!!!

What you get in a good bbq restaurant and what wins at a competition are different products.

I've seen great bbq that would knock your socks off finish in last place at a competition. And I've eaten great bbq in a restaurant that would never do well in competition.

At competition, a lot of attention to details such as trimming the meat, choosing marinades, rubs, and sauces that might be way too pricey to make an affordable restaurant product plays a big part. At competition, you are focusing on one or two portions of meat (assuming a portion is one brisket or butt) then selecting the portions of that meat that have the best tenderness and taste and appearance. Then finding the best 6-8 pieces of it that will fit in a teeny little styrofoam box that must be right side up with no fingerprints or smudges. And finishing it at just the right time, because your chicken skin won't be as crisp 10 minutes later if you finish early.

The food your friend had at a competition wasn't the same as what was turned into the judges. But it was probably excellent.

Could you do this on a day to day basis in a restaurant? Maybe if you charged $100 a plate. And then you'd have to be a nit picker on your side dishes too because you'd want perfection there too. So you wouldn't have happy customers. They'd have to arrange to arrive at your precise turn-in window of 10 minutes.

I love competition because I'd never be able to work a 40 hour week doing it. It's just fun to see how far you can go with something for me. I'm in charge of chicken right now. Attention to detail is paying off for me.

And I wish Frentzen was still in the races!

Peggy

And, Todd, do you know of an F1 team that's looking for a couple of bbq cooks, have trailer, willing to travel? The drivers couldn't eat much, because they might not fit the cars.
Peggy

Todd, Jack and Peggy,

I think I have missed it. What is the purpose of competition? It doesn't seem to be designed for the public, but only judges. Who picks the judges and what are their credentials? Now, I understand cooking 1000 lbs of turkey legs for an event, but to save me I can't understand a closed competition. If there was a $10,000 prize, I would understand it more.

I think I would like to be a judge, just to eat what SHOULD be the best BBQ or smoked meats. I know! I'm only fit to judge smoked fish.

smokemullet

Hi all,

And hi Tom,
I didn't mean to say or imply that the BBQ my friend had was at a BBQ competition, but rather it was at a city fair type event that is held late summer in Chicago on the water front. My friend mentioned it because some of the people catering there he had seen on Food Network's BBQ shows last summer.

I also went back and checked the butts I've been using from BJ's and if they have solution added, it dosen't say so on the case, the individual butt, and the meat dept. manager dosen't know about it. I think it is just a high grade, well fed hog, where as the locally produced variety may be semi wild for all I know. It just looks and tastes a little gamey.

I agree with you Tom that the details make a cook. I spent almost 20 years as a professional chef and those details were my life. Perfection is expected when you're serving guests that made reservations months ago and they're expected to drop $1500 on dinner for 4. But right now I am in the "anti-detail" phase of my life. Simple is better. I'm single. I live alone. More often than not I eat off of paper plates and drink from plastic cups(may be related to the single thing), but I eat well. I guess I think my progress on the CS might have stalled, albeit at a very high and satisfactory level, so I was a little paranoid that there was some lofty new level I could acheive if I had the "secrets" of the pros. But I want BBQ that will knock my socks off in a dark room while wearing a blindfold. Mine will pretty much do that, I was just looking for version #2 and maybe #3 to break the boredom and expand the repertoire.

As for BBQ and F1, should the fields in NASCAR continue to grow, there should be some overflow into F1. If we're lucky enough for the driver to come from down South, BBQ is sure to follow. If they come from up North or out West, who knows? Boiled dinner and tofu? Or vegan?..... Say it ain't so. As long as the pit babes don't get fat. That would be a sad day for racing indeed.

I had forgotten about Mansel. I liked him too. He sure fell off the face of the earth after retirement. He might be off somewhere smokin' some ribs as we speak.

Back to BBQ stuff and another question: Aside from the plate decoration and special care to the cosmetic aspect of the food, is the food the teams sell to the public not essentially the same as the food they send in to be judged?, or I am wrong in my understanding that the teams sell food to the masses/spectators over the course of the weekend? Do any events have a "crowd favorite" type award or any spectator input at all?

And to smokemullett, I was wondering the same thing about closed judging. Last week on Bobby Flay's BBQ show, the award ceremony at the Royal didn't seem to be attended by anyone other than the teams, and not all of them even. It does look like a pretty small community, because just from watching the BBQ shows on TV over the past couple of years, I can recognize a lot of the teams before they're even named on the show. But I too stand ready to answer my call to the table if needed. I'll have to learn to pace myself.

Some of the Q part of this discussion might be better suited in the FEC forums,as many of the folks there do compete and judge.

Yes, the cookoffs have been for the cooks in the past.

Restaurants,caterers,vendors,that use wins/trophies to help sales.

Hobbiests may want to have the best in their neighborhood.

Some contests may draw nearly 500 teams to be "the best in the neighborhood"

Most sanctioning bodies are on annual point systems ,which aids a team to advertise and some have additional monies awarded for that.

There was mention about "if there was a $10,000 prize ,it could be understood".

Douglas,Ga,last fall was about $55,000.

Some wins put you in position for invitational events.

The new Birmingham,Al has already posted $25,000+.
There is now realization that ,like NASCAR,it must be a public event to generate prize money and quality sponsers.

NASCAR moved off T & W nights,for drivers, and moved to Sat & Sun for the public.

Depending on the local health dpt.,contests may have every team cook a butt,to be tried and judged by the public.

"Peoples' Choice" may be free,or a couple bucks to charity to sample them all.

Yes, some contests encourage teams to vend and some teams do so on a regular basis.

To try and achieve a standard that is "level playing field" for the cooks,sanctioning bodies run their own judging schools.

The standards to be used and products are demonstrated,lectured upon,tasted,felt,pulled,analyzed,scored,and critiqued.

Pro cookteams prepare the samples-good & bad!

Some also,have extensive written exams.

The new judges are then often required to judge a couple of contests,before being certified.

Newer judges are often placed at tables with experienced or master judges ,acting as table capts[that don't usually judge]

The sanctioning reps are roaming the judging area,to keep things to a standard.

Some contests ,that offer on site judging,allow the cook teams to grade the judges.

Some contests judge the booths,some the team costumes/dance routines.

Some allow the public to vote,some have hospitality awards-for how the teams welcome the visitors.

Some give you a chance to freelance with anything you like in several categories.

The night before is all about fellowship and shared hospitality among teams,judges,reps,and some of the public.

The awards are usually held at a stage ,after the band has finished a set.

Some of the public stays on.

Often teams have been on site for three days,and traveled a couple days to get there.

It has been my experience that most pro teams remain for awards and many stay over the night.

All this is just short info to the posed questions and not complete ,correct,or justifying.

I'll get outa here before I'm accused of makin'" a Smokin post".

todd,
on the vending thing.
most contests that allow vending will let you bring pre-prepared items to vend but they must be marked as such.
the only item like that we do is brunswich stew. all other items are our contest meat.
the beauty of having a freezer in the rig is that we can use frozen comp meat to make the stew and offset the cost of competition.
as far as competing goes it has allowed us to work out all the bugs in the rig and it more importantly it lets peggy and me work together.
as chefs we both know that when things get hot and hairy cooking and serving is like a dance so the more practice you have the fewer toe mashes you get.
also by competing in "nonsanctioned" events we have been able to obtain contract work.
on the double blind judging the only positive way that it could be a true double blind is by giving you a number chit and not placing team names on the turn in boxes. by having the chit and no names it would be impossible for any boxes to be identified. at awards only a number would be read and if it was yours you win.
jack

quote:

Originally posted by Todd G.:
[qb] ...But my question is, assuming the team that won the Royal or the Jack Daniels Invitational last year produced a pork butt that would rate a "10", how would the butt produced by a CS rate in comparison?

....

Anyway, back to the question; how much better is an award winning butt than a properly cooked butt on a CS? Nothing scientific required, just your opinions. [/qb]

Better is such a subjective term, so I won't go and try that. And competitions. I've had some amazing stuff cooked to a 10 that didn't rate a top 20 and average stuff finish in the top 3. The problem is the judging. That's a WHOLE different question, feel free to post in the FE forum and ask that one. I'll be in Alburquerque for a contest and they've already told me I'll be a Table Captain with probably no certified judges at the table, but I digress..

For me, it's what you like. You might not actually like the taste of Competition Q. You might love it. I know everyone who loves what my 150's do to briskets and butts and I've cooked a lot of stuff in there that would beat every restaurant in town. But you can't compare mine to a restaurant because of the time I put into mine, vs. theirs. They might just throw the butt into the smoker...oh wait, that's all I do. But I work on mine after they come out to make them flavor like I like.

I've actually had people eat my stuff and they tell me they like the boiled ribs they make.

I've got a lot of issues with contests, as the purpose of the contest is NOT for the organizers to make money, it should be for 1) the competitors and 2) the public. If you've known me for long, in my position on the NBBQA board as the backyard chairman, I worked hard to promote the idea of the public at these events. To say the least, it's a terrible waste of money to ask the public to come to Memphis in May and if you're not a friend of a competition team, you're left with going to the Lawrey's demostration or eating food from a vendor who isn't competing. Yes, the health dept has issues, but you work on those. Every contest that has a "public choice" always gets a great response. In 100's of interviews with the public at these events, they always tell me the same thing...they want:

1)to talk to a competitor so they can learn how to improve their Q and

2) they want to taste championship Q to see how it compares.

And that's what you're asking, how does Competition Q taste compared to a CS.

For me, when I cooked on my Smokette, and one my 150's and on my FE and one many other smokers, the food was championship quality. The different is all the subtleties. At home I don't surround it with garnish. I do use a finishing sauce and I do some of the same techniques, but not all of them.

Unfortunately, you can't taste my competition Q, but in the ABA we finished in the top 10 a number of times competing against everyone so I guess it tasted pretty good.

Yup, it's subjective.

Any contest I'm at, you can come taste my stuff (although it's on an FE) and see how it stacks up. I've got about 6 contests this year, but unfortunately they're all in Oklahoma.

And one final thought before this gets too long.

I agree with jack.

It's the cook, not the cooker. I've experienced enough smokers, I can make any of them work after about 1 or 2 cooks at most. The product turns out good because the cook, that's me, is consistent.

I make damn good stuff in my CS's

smokinokie,
thanks for posting that.
it sums up my thoughts but i just couldn't get them out.
i sure wish there was an ABA contest near us.
it would be fun to watch peg play her sm like a fiddle!!!
maybe one day she will teach me lol
again thanks for saying what i was thinking
jack
ps. with all the contests being shown on the food network now is a great time to get the public involved. that would sure grow the sport!!!

Great posts EVERYONE! It's this type of insight that makes this forum unique! 'Smokin posts? Hell, bring "em on!!!
CB