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I'm going to make some pastrami. I've made the "fake" pastrami before and while I liked it, I don't feel it tastes like real pastrami.

As I read throught the old threads, I remembered seeing a show on Food Network about a deli in NY that made their own pastrami every day. They smoked and then boiled their meat. I thought I'd try it this way to see if it gets me closer to where I think pastrami ought to be.


I've read over all the old threads about pastrami and have a good game plan figured out, but my question is, at what temp should I pull the pastrami out of the smoker if I plan to follow with a steam or boiling? Most all the advice says to pull from smoker at 165*, but those posters don't employ the steam/boiling method. I don't know if I should pull sooner, the same, or later.

Tom? Smokin'? Anybody? Thoughts. Ideas. Finger pointing and laughter?
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quote:
Originally posted by BigO'sSmokin:
I saw the show and it was the world famous Carnegi Deli in NYC. They smoked the meat to 140 degrees and then sealed it and shipped it. When it got to the store they cooked it in a steam table but I forget the temp they took it to. I think around 185 190 but I am not sure.


Thank you! I couldn't remember if they ever said the temp they reached, but I remember the meat looked really good. I'll give it a try. It seems strange to me to steam or boil previously smoked meat, but the folks who use this method say it does not diminish the smoke flavor. I figure it's worth a try. Worst case, I'll have cabbage with my corned beef instead of kraut with my pastrami. I can live with failure if the downside is just as tasty.

And thanks to you SmokinJ as well. I've been to your site several times and I think I've gained the weight to prove it. People like you are the enemy of dieters everywhere. Smiler
Todd....

I've made pastrami at home many times, and it boils down to 3 simple steps (and a lot of lead time):

1. Curing (Corning)
2. Smoking
3. Steaming

Without step 3, it's simply smoked corned beef. Certainly nothing wrong with it, but it's not pastrami.

Some people skip step 1 by buying a corned beef brisket and rinsing well before smoking. I prefer to cure my brisket. Also, you can either wet cure or dry cure, which is the more traditional method. I do both, depending on my mood.

For meat, plate is the traditional cut for pastrami. Since that cut, as well as full packer briskets, are difficult to find where I live, I get 7-8 lb untrimmed choice flats in the cryobag.

The process I use is pretty much as follows:

1. Prepare and apply the cure. Put weights on top of the brisket and weight it down (I use foil lined bricks). Turn meat twice a day for 5 days. Remove and rinse the meat then soak in fresh water for 3 hours (change the water every hour).
2. Coat the meat with a mixture of 1 part cracked coriander seeds to 2 parts cracked black peppercorns. Cover the meat and weight it down in a refrigerator for 8-12 hours.
3. Traditionally, pastrami is first cold-smoked then hot-smoked to achieve a heavier smoke. My work-around is to put the meat in the freezer for an hour before starting the smoke. I smoke at 200˚F, using cherrywood, to an internal temp of 160˚F (about 8 hours). I then foil and weight the meat down in the refrigerator for 24 hours.
4. For service, I preheat the oven to 275˚F. I put about an inch of water in a roasting pan and put the smoked brisket, on a cooling rack with short legs, into the pan. Cover the pan tightly with foil and steam for 3-4 hours.
5. Remove, slice, and serve with good quality rye, mustard, homemade Russian dressing, slaw, and a cold beer, of course.

Note that some people advocate that, after steaming the meat as in step 4, to foil it and weight it in the refrigerator for 24 hours. They then follow with a 2nd steaming for 30 minutes. I haven't done this and don't really see a need to.

Because of the time involved, I never make just 1 pastrami anymore. I have 3 curing now to smoke on Saturday. They freeze well.
quote:
Originally posted by dls:
1. Curing (Corning)
2. Smoking
3. Steaming

Without step 3, it's simply smoked corned beef. Certainly nothing wrong with it, but it's not pastrami.


I'm sure it's a controvesy to the Pastrami Purists out there whether to steam or not. I've had outstanding Pastrami that never touched a steam table.

Guess it comes down to tradition that gives you that traditional flavor. Would be interesting to sort out the true effect of steaming. I certainly know the fans of the traditional deli style and have spent years replicating it. I know of two guys that have, but they won't share their recipes and people love their stuff (they sell it in their restaurants)

LOVE the thread guys, keep it up and you'll have yourself a Forum Pastrami Recipe pretty fast.
Thank you dls for sharing your process. That clears up a lot of questions I had. I've done pastrami enough in the past to have the first two steps down(minus one apparently essential ingredient), and I felt like I was close because friends sure ate it up, but it always fell short of my expectations which is why I decided to revisit pastrami recipes. The steam thing kind of surprised me, but I'm looking forward to perfecting a recipe that seems authentic to me. In looking at the different recipes, I realized I had also not been using corriander, but I just bought some today and it will be in the new rub.
My preference is to use a corned point.
I soak for one hr in cold water and then rub liberally with pastrami rub.
I no longer blend my own rub as a local German butcher now supplies me with a commercial rub he supplied to Willi.
After rubbing all surfaces generously i rest in the refer for 3 days either in a covered pan or in a big ziplock.I turn a few times if i remember.
Morning of the 3 rd or 4th day i steam.
Place on rack above about 1/2 inch of water in a covered roaster or cover tightly with foil.
I steam for 3-3.5 hr at 275f in the household gas oven. Check meat temp at abt 3 hours, i like 200f, be careful with steam .
While it cools on the counter i pre heat the CS 50 at 225 till i have good smoke.I use 1/2 chimney because Willi did.
I use a small chunk of whatever,hickory,maple,apple, oak.

I smoke at most for 30 min as it is already tender and i want only a hint of smoke.
If you prefer more smoke reduce your temp and smoke longer.

After cooling i wrap and refrigerate overnight so it sets up.I use an electric slicer to get uniform slices.
Scraps go into hash unless i have eaten them all!
This is dead easy and product wise i see NO advantage in corning one's own brisket.
Best.
dick
quote:
This is dead easy and product wise i see NO advantage in corning one's own brisket.
Best.
dick


Around here corned flat, points, and round go for about $3.25-$4.00 per pound, and have no fat on them at all. Brisket packers are still $1.70 per pound and you can adjust the fat to your liking. Assuming cure is of equal quality, the price alone might be reason enough to corn your own. And just imagine the scraps you'd have to eat from a 16# brisket. Smiler
I agree Todd. Why go out and pay 3 or 4 times the price when you can have the satisfaction of doing it all yourself.

Can you do what dick suggested? Sure. But your also at the whim of the company providing that product and also that most of those do have chemicals added, after all they are selling to the public.

I'll make my own.
quote:
Originally posted by SmokinOkie:
I'm sure it's a controvesy to the Pastrami Purists out there whether to steam or not. I've had outstanding Pastrami that never touched a steam table.

Guess it comes down to tradition that gives you that traditional flavor. Would be interesting to sort out the true effect of steaming. I certainly know the fans of the traditional deli style and have spent years replicating it. I know of two guys that have, but they won't share their recipes and people love their stuff (they sell it in their restaurants)

LOVE the thread guys, keep it up and you'll have yourself a Forum Pastrami Recipe pretty fast.


Smokin' - My reference standard for pastrami is New York City, where I lived and worked for a number of years following college and some time with the USAF. I grew up in a Midwestern town where a bagel with cream cheese was considered as an exotic deli item. So, when I got to NYC, it was like I had crossed through the pearly gates.

NYC is where I also where I met my first wife, whose father happened to own a large wholesale meat company. Though he did not supply their meat, he was close friends with many of the owners of the more prominent delis (Katz's, 2nd Ave., Stage, Carnegie, etc). With the FIL as a guide, we had a weekend ritual of deli hopping all over town. I didn't take long for a hot pastrami sandwich to become my #1 go-to item on any deli's menu. Some I preferred over others, but they were all very good to great. To this day, it continues to be my favorite sandwich.

Because of my FIL's relationship with the owners, I got to go through many of their kitchens and some off-premise prep plants. For the most part, they all pretty mucn followed the procedure that I posted up thread. The variations were in the meat purveyor and the cut of meat used, length and type of cure (wet or dry), spices in the cure (closely guarded secrets), rub ingredients (ditto), and the length of time spent smoking and steaming.

Since NYC, I've lived in several major cities in the country. I've also traveled extensively throughout the U.S. for far too many years. I've tried pastrami in many different locations, and while I've found some versions to be O.K, some so-so, there have been many disappointments. Because of this, I started making my own pastrami a number of years ago using the methods I had earlier observed, a lot of additional research, and a little tweaking for personal preferences.

More often than not, I have found that pastrami served outside of the NYC area is not steamed. To me, pastrami should be served as a hot sandwich that is succulent and juicy, with a little pull, but almost melting in your mouth. In my opinion, you're not going to get that without the steaming step.
Last edited by dls
OK dls. I just pulled two flats out of the steam and I'm a very happy person right now! The overnight weight down had a surprising effect on these. I wouldn't have anticipated such a change in texture. I'd have to give these a 98 out of 100, thanks to your process.

BTW, what do you use to cure them? I've been using 1 part TQ to 1 part brown sugar, with a little bay leaf and mace thrown in for good measure, but I'd love to cut back on the TQ if possible. That's the same cure I use for bacon so I just carried it over to briskets when I started corning my own. I'm sure there's something better out there. Care to share?
After steaming, I put these back in the fridge and weighted again just to see what would happen. I woke up around 4:00 and decided to slice them. The weighting had given them a nice firm texture and density. Very nice. I pulled out my slicer, which promptly died, so I ended up slicing by hand. All I can say is that you know it's good when you're sort of, kind of, not doing your best job slicing because you get to eat the imperfect slices.Smiler Mistakes never tasted so good!
I bow down to the Deli experts. Unless I travel out of OKC, we certainly dont have that style of deli.

So, next time you do Pastrami, take some photos and we'll collaborate on a Pastrami 101. You too Todd. There are just some crap recipes out there and would love to let you guys share the knowledge.

We just don't cover corning/pastrami enough, I know Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Todd G.:
OK dls. I just pulled two flats out of the steam and I'm a very happy person right now! The overnight weight down had a surprising effect on these. I wouldn't have anticipated such a change in texture. I'd have to give these a 98 out of 100, thanks to your process.

BTW, what do you use to cure them? I've been using 1 part TQ to 1 part brown sugar, with a little bay leaf and mace thrown in for good measure, but I'd love to cut back on the TQ if possible. That's the same cure I use for bacon so I just carried it over to briskets when I started corning my own. I'm sure there's something better out there. Care to share?


Glad it worked for you Todd. The weights do a nice job in really firming up the meat's texture. Thanks for the kind words.

In as far as cures are concerned, I switch back and forth between wet and dry cures. I also play around a bit and experiment with different ingredients. I currently have three flats, each around 7 pounds in a wet cure. I intended freeze two of them for later and smoke one yesterday (Sat.), then steam and serve it today. My plans got sidetracked as I ended up in Madrid on business last Thursday and won't return to the States until tomorrow. So, all three go in the freezer today, and later in the week I'll thaw one to do next weekend.

The wet cure for the current batch, for one 7 pound flat, includes the following:

1 1/2 cups kosher salt
8 tsp (2 2/3 tbs) pink salt
1 cup turbinado sugar
1/2 cup brown sugar
2 tbs pickling spice
1 tbs each cracked coriander and mustard seeds
1 tsp whole cloves, lightly crushed
1/4 cup honey
6 garlic cloves, minced

Combine all ingredients in a pot with enough water to cover the brisket. Bring to a simmer and stir to dissolve the salt and sugar. Remove from the heat, cool, then refrigerate until chilled.
Last edited by dls
That's pretty close to what I'm using spice wise. I haven't tried the honey, which would make sense for pastrami, but I've used maple syrup for bacon to good effect.

I've been debating trying wet cures, but I get so much fluid release that it seems like I'm already there by day 2 anyway, so I've stuck with the dry process so far.

Enjoy Madrid. There's some good food down there.
quote:
Originally posted by Todd G.:
That's pretty close to what I'm using spice wise. I haven't tried the honey, which would make sense for pastrami, but I've used maple syrup for bacon to good effect.

I've been debating trying wet cures, but I get so much fluid release that it seems like I'm already there by day 2 anyway, so I've stuck with the dry process so far.

Enjoy Madrid. There's some good food down there.


Most of the time I dry cure. I only use honey with wet cures, and then, not all of the time. Just thought I would switch around a little this time.

You're right in that Madrid has some great food. From the 1000s of neighborhood tapas bars to the high end restaurants. The only downside is the 9.5 hour flight to get there, which I do 8-10 times a year.
I'm working on it. I've got two briskets in the cure now. I took a couple of pictures of them in cryo just to prove they were real, and a couple more pictures after I trimmed them. Now they're bathing peacefully and there isn't much to see, but things will get exciting this weekend. I'll be sure to document everything.
quote:
Originally posted by TaktEZ:
The other downer is that most of the good restaurants don't open 'til 9 or 10 pm. I'm hungry long before then. Didn't find any BBQ joints in Madrid either. Frowner

I take it you've been to El Prado Museum. It's a must see.


Your right in that the better restaurants don't open until late, but most Spaniards don't eat their midday meal until about 3:00 P.M. or so. Then, around 8:00, they do a tapeo or tapas walk to a number of bars for tapas, drink, and socializing with their friends. If they're still up to it, then it's off to dinner.

Nope, no BBQ. However, for the pork-inclined, some of the best hams to be found anywhere.

Yes, I've been to the Prado many times along with the two other major museums on what's locally known as the Paseo del Arte, the Reina Sofia and the Thyssen-Bornemisza. Altogether, it's one of the most phenomenal collections of art in the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Todd G.:
I'm working on it. I've got two briskets in the cure now. I took a couple of pictures of them in cryo just to prove they were real, and a couple more pictures after I trimmed them. Now they're bathing peacefully and there isn't much to see, but things will get exciting this weekend. I'll be sure to document everything.


I doing one this weekend, also. If I can figure out where I put my camera, I'll post some pix.
I took pictures of the cryo'ed briskets but don't know if they'll come out. My smart media card from my old camera is tempermental and wouldn't read the other day. Maybe tomorrow it will work. Who knows? I think it's jealous because last week work gave me a Blackberry. Really scary machine. 3mp camera, video with 4GB storage, and enough processor power and RAM to corn your brisket and smoke it too. If my smart media card won't work, I'll have a fallback option. Now back to Pastrami Talk with your host.........
Real camera may be dead for good, so pictures are not numerous or well taken, but better than nothing I guess.

I started out with 2 full packer briskets that were both within a couple of ounces of 10#. Small for packers, but worked out well since these have to go into a large container to cure. I use a clear Cambro that measures about 10"H x 12"W x 20"L to give me some extra room. This size Cambro also holds two large butts for making bacon or ham.

I trimmed the briskets of extra fat and fiberous material, then cut each brisket into two pieces, more for ease of handling than anything else. I guessing I got a total of about 2.5# of fat from the two briskets, so roughly 17.5# of meat is going into the cure.

I went for a wet cure, so I started out with about 2 quarts of water. To that I added the following:
1# Tender Quick
1# Brown sugar
4 tbs Pickling spice
3 tbs Garlic, minced
1 tbs each cracked coriander, whole black pepper, and mustard seeds
1 tsp Ground cloves
1/4 cup Honey

Bring this mixture to a boil, stir to dissolve solids, then cool. Place briskets in container and pour chilled cure mixture over, then add enough water to cover. I also inject the thicker parts of the brisket in several places to ensure the cure solution penetrates. I haven't always done this, and sometimes there has been a failure to get the meat fully cured to the core, so I think it's a good idea to be safe. Mix well, weight down briskets to guarantee they remain submerged, then place in fridge. Remember to turn once a day for 5 days.

Note: To weigh my briskets down, I use a gallon ziploc bag I blow up with air. I place the bag on top of the briskets, then put the lid of the Cambro on top, then I weigh the lid down. I can get just the right amount of "weight" by making the bag bigger or smaller, and this way I don't have to put anything into the cure with the meat.

So, five days later and you're getting hungry by now. Remove briskets from cure, rinse well, and soak in cold water for three hours, changing water twice. Dry meat, and then rub (I only do the top) with a mixture of:
2 tbs ground corriander
4 tbs coarse grind black pepper
1 tbs granulated garlic

Note: dls says to weight it down in the fridge overnight at this stage. I tried it that way, then tried pressing the rub into the meat well and weighting it down for a couple of hours. I don't know if I saw any difference, but my stomach was happier with my version, so I would suggest you try it both ways and decide for yourself if the extra time under weight is necessary.

Cool meat very well, maybe even place in freezer for an hour, then into 200* smoker until meat reaches ~160* internal. I get wonky readings when I'm doing these things, I think it has to do with the cure brine, so I usually go by feel to a large degree. I let this batch go for 5 hours in the smoker. They will not be fork tender like a traditional brisket, and you don't want them to be.

Remove meat from the smoker and once again weight it down in the fridge overnight. Here, at last, is a picture(after the smoker, after the weight, but before the steam):


The next day, place in a pan on a rack to raise the meat off the bottom, add water to the pan, cover tightly with foil, then steam in the oven for 3-4 hours. Just like dls said. You may then weigh them down again for another night, or eat them. You choose. I agree with dls in that I don't see any reason to weigh them down again. Here are mine after they steamed. These were weighed down after steaming because I wasn't ready to eat them right away, so I figure "why not"?



Lastly, here's a shot of a sliced piece. Cured through and through. Good color. Very tasty!



Hope you'all have fun with this. I think you'll be pleased with the results. I didn't weigh the meat after I trimmed it, or after it was finished, but I'm guessing you end up with about 12-13# of product from the original 20# raw weight. At $1.70 a pound raw, that gives you a finished cost around $2.80 per/#.

Final Note: dls uses kosher salt and pink salt as the basis for his cure. I use Tender Quick which is made from pickling salt and sodium nitrate/nitrite. Note that I am doing about double the meat with what might seem to be the same rough amunt of salt cure, but the TQ is much(!!!) finer than kosher salt. I suspect that his amounts, if expressed in pounds as I did mine, would be proportional for the amount of meat being cured. Just be sure that you don't mix recipes as the results will be very different. You could however adjust for amount of meat to cure, but micro adjustments are not necessary. 5 pounds +/- is plenty accurate.
Last edited by Former Member
Nice report Todd. Looks very good. What do you think of the wet cure versus a dry cure?

As Smokin' asked, what would you change, if anything.

I smoked a cured flat yesterday, slightly less than 7 lbs. It's been weighted down in the fridge overnight, and I plan on steaming it this afternoon. I'll report back on the results later. Hopefully with pix, if I can find my camera.
Last edited by dls
quote:
Originally posted by SmokinOkie:
Thanks for the report.

So, happy with the results? Couldn't tell if it was perfect or just close. Would you change anything?

1 pd of TQ and BS to 2 quarts water? Did it dissolve okay? If you're going to add water to cover, wouldn't you start with more liquid to get a good mix?


I'm extremely pleased with the outcome. I think adding honey per dls's suggestion mellowed the flavor in a very pleasing way. You don't taste the honey, but it seems to take the edge off any lingering saltiness. As for perfect, it's close enough that I don't feel compelled to change anything, and I feel secure that if others follow this procedure, they will have good results and won't come looking for me. Smiler This might not be the pastrami everybody grew up with in whatever part of the country they came from, but it'll be close enough that they'll happily eat it and ask for seconds.

Maybe the mellowing also had something to do with wet cure vs dry cure. With a dry cure, the meat releases a lot of liquid in the first couple of days to the point where it's almost floating in it's own juices. The wet cure just seems to start the process at that point, but with a much lower salt level. I expected to have to remove some fluid from the Cambro as the meat cured, but the fluid level remained constant for all 5 days.

As for the 2qts of water, I cheated in my instructions in an attempt to "idiot proof" the recipe. I used a 3.5qt pot that was almost full. The TQ/BS dissovled easily in a couple of minutes. I poured this into the Cambro, and then added ~2qts more water and stirred. I know how much my container will hold, so I can get away with doing it this way. What I didn't want was for someone to try this and not be able to fit all the initial cure solution into the container with their meat. It's not about the water, it's about what's in the water. You can always add water, but the dry cure solution should be used in the full amounts for a given weight of meat.
Made sense until you said:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd G.:
...It's not about the water, it's about what's in the water. You can always add water, but the dry cure solution should be used in the full amounts for a given weight of meat.


I think if you keep the liquid close to your amounts, you'll be fine but you CAN dilute the solution by adding too much water and what it would do is extend the soak needed to get full penetration.

Thanks for posting, it's a great "how to" and should help people get started with Pastrami.
That's true. I hadn't considered too much water, anticipating a container just large enough to hold meat and not much larger. I guess somebody could show up with a 60qt Rubbermaid storage container.

I think keeping the solution in the 4-6qt range total will be safe. I wouldn't dilute it any further. If that's not enough to cover a couple of briskets, then you need a smaller container. Over dilution was one of the concerns I had before trying wet cures, and I couldn't find any accurate and consistant information about it anywhere.

One thing I failed to mention is that this process takes a long time, but dosen't get harder the more meat you do in a batch. If you have the freezer space I would suggest doing 4-6 briskets at a time and freezing for future use. I've had a couple of pieces I made last year and vacumme packed that tasted like fresh made when I took them out last week.

And lastly, I smoked with hickory. I think cherry and oak would work very well also. I'd pass on apple because I think it would add a flavor that wouldn't work well with the pastrami spices. I'm sure there are other woods that I've never tried that would work well also.
Last edited by Former Member
Finally have a chance to report back on my most recent pastrami experience. I wet cured 3 Excel choice flats, straight from the cryovac bag, and did no additional trimming. Each flat was around 7 lbs. The flats were cured using the method and ingredients I posted up thread. The intent was to smoke/steam 1 of the flats following the curing process and freeze the other 2 for later. Because of an unexpected trip out of the country, all 3 went to the freezer after the cure. Due to the complications, the curing period turned out to be 7 days, a couple of days longer than I normally do.

Upon my return, I thawed 1 of the flats and refrigerated under weights for 24 hours. Last Saturday morning, I coated it with a heavy rub consisting of:

- 2 parts cracked peppercorns (mix of black, white, green, and pink)
- 1 part cracked coriander seeds
- 1/2 part cracked mustard seeds
- 1/2 part minced garlic

The flat was smoked at 200˚F using 4.8 0z. of black cherry. I took it to an internal temp of 163˚F (~8 hours). I then cooled it and refrigerated it under weights for 24 hours. The next day, I brought the flat to room temp then steamed it, covered, in an oven pre-heated to 275˚F. Took it to an internal temp of 185˚F (~3 hours). Removed it from the oven, foiled, toweled, and put it in the cooler for one hour since I was running a little ahead of schedule. Following that, I made a number of pastrami sandwiches which the family and a couple of friends demolished in short order.

All in all, it was probably the best pastrami that I've made. The longer cure might be the reason, since I didn't do anything else different than I normally do.

I was going to include some pix, but after finally finding my camera, I discovered that a lens gear was broken. I resorted to taking a couple of pix with my Palm Treo, but I'm having difficulty posting them. Once I get it sorted out, I'll be back.
Last edited by dls
quote:
Originally posted by Todd G.:
quote:
Originally posted by dls:
- 2 parts cracked peppercorns (mix of black, white, green, and pink)


Sure, now you go and get all fancy on us. I suppose you're using Spanish peppercorns unavailable in the US? Smiler


Nope. It's a 4 blend mix I get at the local Trader Joe's. Don't know where they get it, though.
just thought id put this in i did a flat and point they were store bought corned beef i did the point in the smoker to 185 and the flat to 160 then steamed the flat the next day. the point was tender and good but the flat had more flavor and a better texture. but they both were good

later
tim

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