Urban Myth of the stall

This is a GOOD one! Everyone will have there own opinion sorta like evolution or Adam and Eve but the Science of cooking is a great subject. The amount of collagen in meat comes from many factors. The age and sex are important factors along with the conditions where the animal is raised. Genetics play a big role in this as well. For those of you that aren’t familiar with Wagyu beef, the term refers to several breeds of cattle that tend to have an obscene amount of fat marbled into the meat. The marbling is further coaxed along with special feed and other things like beer and regular massages. Yes, you read that right, they actually booze up the bovines and hire big burly masseuses to give the cows a daily rub-down. Wagyu cattle were first imported in 1975 when two black and two red bulls were imported Morris Whitney. In 1989 the Japanese began to reduce their tariffs on imported beef and that encouraged U.S. producers to produce a high quality product for Japan. In the 1990’s there were several importations of quality Wagyu. Most were black, but a few were Red Wagyu. These cattle have the greatest influence on the U.S. herd and those in many other countries.Most US production was exported to Japan until 2003 when BSE was discovered and Japan and other countries stopped the import of beef for the U.S. However, chefs and others in the U.S. were aware of the superior eating quality of Wagyu and the domestic market then and now utilize much of the U.S. production. Thus these spoiled animals do not have to walk around big pastures up and down hill so the environment they live in along with great and pure genetics result in less collagen and connective tissue to break down during the cooking process. Therefore a wagyu brisket will not stall like a choice packer. Moisture or "sweating" does have an effect but the denaturing of the collagen in my humble opinion is the very definition of the stall in the cooking process.

@ Amazingribs.com, the science of the stall is discussed in great detail. They conclude that it is the result of evaporative cooling. It is hard to refute the sponge experiment in which a soaked sponge stalled with a graph similar to meat. Along the same line, wrapping the meat in foil will virtually eliminate the stall. Maybe Waugu has more fat and less water?

I would think it would be hard to compare a sponge soaked in water to a piece of meat. The amount of water a sponge can hold to the moisture content of meat, the way heat affects the cellular structure of the two, is like comparing a sponge to a piece of meat . Interesting article though.

quote:

Originally posted by Wilber:
I would think it would be hard to compare a sponge soaked in water to a piece of meat. The amount of water a sponge can hold to the moisture content of meat, the way heat affects the cellular structure of the two, is like comparing a sponge to a piece of meat . Interesting article though.

I believe that the wrapping of meat with foil is like taking a steam shower inside of an oven thus cutting down the stall by concentrating the heat to break down the proteins faster.

Luckily,having waited out the "cabin fever" of around a half century of winters,I've had the opportunity to listen to too many cooks frustrated with nothing to do,and occasionally tip a bottle and begin to think ,rather than cooking. [especially when we all got computers]

Seems like ,over the years,I've yet to hear cooks ever worry about-much less discuss the subject.

Fortunately,spending the winters where it is warm,the cooks are busy cooking,so I guess I'll never know the answer to such profound questions.

I have had it whispered to me,by some that are thought to be fine cooks,that they rarely ever met a big old steer that could read a science book or ever went to college.

Just a thought.

[QUOTE Maybe Waugu has more fat and less water?[/QUOTE]

That's my thinking. The excess marbling of a Waygu brisket displaces muscle thus there is less liquid needed to be evaporated.

By the way, of the 4-5 Snake River Farm Wagyu's I've smoked, they do go through a stall...it's just not as predominant. Then again, the Miracle Whip slather may be a factor

quote:

Originally posted by Joe M:
@ Amazingribs.com, the science of the stall is discussed in great detail. They conclude that it is the result of evaporative cooling. It is hard to refute the sponge experiment in which a soaked sponge stalled with a graph similar to meat. Along the same line, wrapping the meat in foil will virtually eliminate the stall. Maybe Waugu has more fat and less water?

Please explain to me why a 50-60 day wet aged brisket takes the same amount of time to get through the stall. A LOT of the water has already been purged from the meat?

Fuel for thoughts!

I agree with that - there is either less moisture, OR, on more tender meats, the moisture is evaporated off a bit easier. I agree with the science at the amazing ribs site, and that it's an evaporative process, or 'sweating', which is simply evaporative cooling.

Now, we can go totally off the edge and jump into the always speculative discussion of left hand briskets being more tender than right hand briskets. The more beer, the deeper those discussions can go. If nothing else, it makes for wonderful conversations with customers and fellow smoker buddies at my restaurant. And I'm always amazed how many customers ask '... now exactly what is a brisket?'. That's because we're in Pennsylvania, not Texas, where knowledge of brisket and all things beef seem to be more common knowledge.

Rick

quote:

Originally posted by MaxQ:
Maybe Waugu has more fat and less water?

That's my thinking. The excess marbling of a Waygu brisket displaces muscle thus there is less liquid needed to be evaporated.

By the way, of the 4-5 Snake River Farm Wagyu's I've smoked, they do go through a stall...it's just not as predominant. Then again, the Miracle Whip slather may be a factor

quote:

Originally posted by cal:

quote:

Originally posted by Joe M:
@ Amazingribs.com, the science of the stall is discussed in great detail. They conclude that it is the result of evaporative cooling. It is hard to refute the sponge experiment in which a soaked sponge stalled with a graph similar to meat. Along the same line, wrapping the meat in foil will virtually eliminate the stall. Maybe Waugu has more fat and less water?

Please explain to me why a 50-60 day wet aged brisket takes the same amount of time to get through the stall. A LOT of the water has already been purged from the meat?

Fuel for thoughts!

Cal,
I thought you injected your briskets? I bet water is one of the "secret" ingredients?!

quote:

Cal,
I thought you injected your briskets? I bet water is one of the "secret" ingredients?!

Speaking of injected briskets, by injecting or brining would that increase the cook time due to the added moister??

quote:

Originally posted by Wilber:
Speaking of injected briskets, by injecting or brining would that increase the cook time due to the added moister??

Ya know, that was my first thought.

If the fine scientist wanted to do a comprehensive study, instead of using a sponge,maybe a injected brisket next to an regular brisket would produce different results?

Now, can someone explain to me why the brisket goes into a secondary stall right before it surrenders? Surely there is no evaporation left at this point?

Good topic!

quote:

Originally posted by Wilber:
Speaking of injected briskets, by injecting or brining would that increase the cook time due to the added moister??

My understanding is that water transmit heats faster, so for years, we've always said that brining decreases cooking time because of the added moisture

quote:

Originally posted by cal:
This should be a great topic to discuss on the forum. I know some want to believe that the stall is more the brisket "sweating" then the "urban myth" of collagen breaking down fibers.

Sorry, not going to get into this one. It's been beaten to death in multiple forums and for me, what does it matter? There is a stall, it happens. Sure I'm the resident Mad Food Scientist on this forum, but for me it's just not one I've concentrated on.

So I'll leave it up to you guys, seems to be a lively discussion.

Now if you really want to start a controversy, find me PROOF that smoke stops penetrating meat at 140. I've heard that for years and have never proven it. Nope, doesn't matter to me, cause I know it stops at some point.

Can't wait for spring to get here so we get back to talking smoking

I agree with brining and heat transfer but injecting adds mass. It will take longer to cook because of both added mass and more resultant evaporative cooling.

In the end the stall is my friend! You can throw a brisket in a 400 degree oven and bring it to temp quick but you are left with a dry chewy hunk of meat. The denaturing of the collagen and protein structures give you the tenderness and moisture retention that makes a great piece of meat! Great topic and discussion!!

I'm with you on that one Okie. Maybe the smoke can't 'penetrate' after a certain point, but in reality, the smoke doesn't penetrate that deep anyway - definitely more of a surface thing. That being said, I keep smoking past 140 degrees, because no matter what, the fat and juice is still getting smoked at the surface, and adds to the flavor. At the restaurant, I always start ribs bone side down, then flip them halfway through. With the bone side up, juices and melted fat start to puddle on top of the ribs while lying bone side down. I then wrap them and hold them at 160 till finishing on the CB with glaze or sauce. That juice the ribs are resting in those a few hours is some well soaked stuff, liquid gold that keeps flavor alive. Ok, no more rib secrets to be given out today.

Rick

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinOkie:

quote:

Originally posted by cal:
This should be a great topic to discuss on the forum. I know some want to believe that the stall is more the brisket "sweating" then the "urban myth" of collagen breaking down fibers.

Sorry, not going to get into this one. It's been beaten to death in multiple forums and for me, what does it matter? There is a stall, it happens. Sure I'm the resident Mad Food Scientist on this forum, but for me it's just not one I've concentrated on.

So I'll leave it up to you guys, seems to be a lively discussion.

Now if you really want to start a controversy, find me PROOF that smoke stops penetrating meat at 140. I've heard that for years and have never proven it. Nope, doesn't matter to me, cause I know it stops at some point.

Can't wait for spring to get here so we get back to talking smoking

quote:

Originally posted by Tom:
Luckily,having waited out the "cabin fever" of around a half century of winters,I've had the opportunity to listen to too many cooks frustrated with nothing to do,and occasionally tip a bottle and begin to think ,rather than cooking. [especially when we all got computers]

Seems like ,over the years,I've yet to hear cooks ever worry about-much less discuss the subject.

Fortunately,spending the winters where it is warm,the cooks are busy cooking,so I guess I'll never know the answer to such profound questions.

I have had it whispered to me,by some that are thought to be fine cooks,that they rarely ever met a big old steer that could read a science book or ever went to college.

Just a thought.

YEAH!, somehow I thought it would be hard to get Smokin',RibDog, and you in this discussion.

But what is a bunch of the forum members gonna do when it's too cold to smoke? Anyway, we all know there's thousands of ways to make a fine meal out of the toughest piece of meat on a steer!

It ain't too cold to smoke. It's going to be 68* today. 72* over the weekend. Think I'll do ribs.

I will commend cal on tossing out some "food for thought" when the weather might take some of the fun out of a practice cook.

This and the "bullet " are about the only forums you can ask these "cabin fever" questions and get discussions that don't turn into a fist,or knife fight.We've seen many hurt feelings,longterm breaking up of cooking associations, and threatened knife and gun fights.

Cookshack has been gracious enough to sponsor our forum and Smokin'Okie leads by example as a gentleman.
Since the days of the original forum,I can only think of maybe five folks that didn't understand the acceptable/encouraged attitudes that our kind of members display.

Luckily,our group makes it thru to spring each year and sometimes even help each other learn a few things.

Just my $0.02

Great discussion! I am with pags though. With a high of 80' today and the next couple of days, the only thing I am concerned with is how much time I have to smoke.
As far as the stall goes it is sort of nice knowing you can count on it. When I get up in the morning I can see a pork butt humming along in my 225' smoker holding between 170 and 175. I know I still have several hours before it gets to my desired temp. Off to the swapmeet I have gone many times to come back a few hours later to the butt only moving 1-3 degrees. The whole time I am gone I am worried that I will come back to an overcooked piece of meat. NEVER has happened though.

I have played around with the smoke penetration. Starting in a cold smoker, starting with a cold piece of meat, started at a lower temp. Not once have I had one of my pork butts come out smokier then the other. Only when I have expiremented with different woods has it made any real difference. My pallet craves smoke, and now I am adding small amounts of mesquite to my oak or hickory. I do now notice the difference.

My theory is:
Fat is far less dense than muscle.
Thus it take less BTUs to cook fat than muscle, because there is less mass.
When you buy Wagyu, you are really buying a high fat piece of meat.
You have the roughly the same heat (BTUs) in the cooker whether you put on Wagyu or a hunk of select grade.
The Wagyu still has a stall, but a far less noticeable stall because it takes less heat overall.
This also explains why a Wagyu internal temp will take off like a rocket as soon as it goes past the stall point.
That's my story and I am sticking to it.