botulism,,,,and others.....

I agree, food safety should have more discussion.
Not only should you follow the safety rules, but keep track of who you buy food from.
We keep our trailer sanitized to the max. And you don't know who handles your food before you do, so keep track of where it all comes from.
In my opinion, gloves for food service personnel is a bad thing since they don't know how to use them. If you put gloves on and wear them all day, you're spreading disease all over the place. They'd be better off handwashing frequently.
And if owners had their staff wearing gloves properly I think costs would go up. Jack puts them on, takes them off several times during farmers market.
After each market, we bleach everything, then let it air dry.
While we're doing the market, we wash our hands frequently, and anytime we re-enter the trailer. And there is a long sudsing period. We wear gloves if we're handling food that won't be cooked after handling.
I know you follow food temperature guidelines, refrigeration, how long you can hold once it's cooked, freezing, etc.
I'd like to see the differences from state to state on laws.
Peggy

coffeebluff,
the potato was the culprit and it wasn't the 1st time. one of the biggest outbreaks of botulism was caused by the same thing and is taught in culinary school during the 3 months of sanitation study. the scene goes like this;
potato is wrapped in foil and allowed to sit at room temp. while potato is a GRAS product it violates that rule when wrapped as an anareobic enviroment has been created and we now are getting toxins produced.
ok-now this potato gets baked-big deal heat does not affect the toxins and until the potato hits around 350f the botulism is still producing even more toxins.
but-where it got even more interesting is these things were held in an undertemp bun type warmer and then put in a reefer while still wrapped. when they were reheated the next day by putting them back in the same warmer all heck broke loose.
what people forget is botulism occurs naturally in the soil so anything that is soil related carries the possibility of being contaminated. it only becomes a risk when the anaerobic condition is provided,either by foil wrapping or by canning.
i agree with you that this subject for some reason goes under the radar screen!!!!!!!!!
peggy touched on a few things but since you asked for a list here goes and i know some of it may be overkill but like my inspectors says "jack i like you. you never take chances!!"
foodhandling:
hand sanitizer- we provide this for our customers use. the market currently only has port-a-pottys so that right there is a red flag. we provide this both to keep the customers safe(and in the event of a lawsuit exceed the "reasonable man theory of law") and more importantly to keep the latch on the door safe. before i ever go into the rig after using the facilities i always hit the hand sanitizer before i touch the door latch.
hand wash- sink is in the very front and hot water and antibacterial soap are used.
gloves- between 25-30 pairs in four hours.
sanitzer- all spoons ,ect are kept in sanitzer between uses. cutting surfaces and counters are wiped down after each use or in the case of multiple orders after that cluster of orders is done. if it occurs that an order comes in while this is being done peg justs advises the customer that it will be a minute as he is sanitizing. they don't seem to mind the wait.
serving area-peg uses sani-wipes for both the interior and exterior serving areas on a consistant basis.
general cleaning- we work clean and keep it clean. nuff said there.
every use cleaning-after parking the rig the sinks are cleaned out and sanitized,through sweeping and mopping is done,all exterior surfaces of smokers are sanitized,interiors cleaned out and wiped down,dried and new aluminum placed in them.
every 2 week cleaning- hood system cleaned scrubbed and polished. the polish seem to make it easier each time as smoke and grease doesn't stick. reefer and freezer throughly washed sanitized and dried. floors hand scrubbed using green scrubbie and then mopped until the water stays clear. undersurfaces cleaned. floor polished including under the sinks.
food safety----
all meat is in cryovac packaging
all meat is cooked from a frozen state. since my run up notes shows that frozen meat hits the same interior temp at the same time as meat that starts at 34-38f range i do not risk defrosting meat. just one fewer variable to think about. i learned this while making my own HACCP list.
cooked product is divided into smaller pans. working pans are in the fec set at smoke temp. going in and out gives me an average temp of 148+. this is well above the new law here which allows steam tables to be set at 135f (and that one has my inspector and me scratching our heads)
non-working pans are kept in the sm150 on a hold temp of 165f.
custom orders-peggy has quite a business in one pound packages of frozen pulled pork. these orders are filled no later than 9am and placed in the freezer. freezer will hit -5f within 90 mins of starting up. they remain in the freezer until quitting time at the market where they are removed to an nsf cooler (cambro with frozen inserts in lieu of hot water). these reamin frozen right to the door of the customer. we do no hot food delievery or delievery of a quantity larger than one pound increments to ensure product remains rock hard frozen.
i think that about covers what we do even though i got this strange feeling i left something out.
is some of it overkill??? for sure it is. but it sure is fun to have a pop inspection and have the inspector grinning because the floors under the sinks are polished (and who do you think would get my 1st supeona in the event of a lawsuit?? )
jack

wow, jack! but no, i dont think its over kill. and it sure sound sa whole lot cleaner than any corp place i have ever seen.
but my question was what was the town of the south ga outbreak. plus, being clean is great, but will not prevent an outbreak if its already in the food from the prior- manufactured ingredients. as for the potato, i cook mine in foil(i scrub them real good first), hold them warm, then chill with the foil still on. the next day, i unwrap and slice, and portion, and rechill. then fry to order. so are you saying that maybe i should unwrap them before chilling the first time, to be more safe and proper....perhaps that is why 'perkins' will not bake their potatos in foil. they brush them with oil, and bake on a sheet pan.

if memory serves me correct the georgia town was brunswich while the scene taught in school was in portland.
the whole key to the problem was the time they were allowed to set at room temp which exceeded 90 mins. while the cleaning of the potato was glossed over my own feeling was they were just dunked and wrapped.
when i was doing convention work we oiled and baked wheather it was going on a steam table for buffet or plated. it just saved a step.
as far as cooling them in foil goes i don't see why you can't as you can easily monitor your temp a few times while cooling to be sure you get below 41f within code time. the big risk would be packing a 6" hotel full of them as there is no way they can hit temp in time cooling down. i've seen the way you do it and it looks fine to me since you never pack them in tight while cooling but to be on the safe side just take their temps a few times to get enough data to draw a graph which i do a lot of times as i find i can understand my data better with a picture so to speak.
as far as the "bug" already being in the product
watch for more e-coli and hepatitist outbreaks from fruits like raspberry and strawberries from mexico and south america and for sure on foods like sprouts and lettuce from the same area. in the cases of those products even using a vegetable wash simply will not remove the nasties. best bet is to use only usa produced fruits and veg as the usda does a very good job of monitoring the working conditions so the workers have access to sanitary facilities which does reduce the chance of those types of infections. needless to say third world countries don't provide those facilities so your veg, as unsavory as it sounds, is their toiletpaper and handwashing facility.
by the way you are right you very rarely see this topic broached in any professional forums on the internet and i can't for the life of me understand why as it is a critical subject for pros.
jack
ps. a really good site to keep up with what is going on is www.cfsan.fda.gov/list.html
fairly ez to navigate and can go in whatever direction hits you.

Hello Jack from Montana.

I have a couple of questions. One in reference to the customer having sanitation materials available after using the porta potty. This has bothered me for some time. I have not figured out how to provide this service for the customer. How do you do it. Last night after reading your input on this tread and thinking about it I remembered seeing a small hand sink setup at the local Sportsmans Warehourse to be used in the field by hunters. I plan on looking into getting one of these and setting it up adjacent to the porta potty. I'm sure the customer would appreciate it. Might even use it myself before returning to the trailer. I have always used the hand sink in the trailer which the customer does not have access to.

Second question had to do with cooking butts from frozen state which I understand you do. I haven't tried to cook meat from frozen. It would solve some problems for me. Do I understand you right that cooking a frozen butt takes the same amount of time as a thawed butt to reach the same internal temperature? Please comment a little more on cooking from frozen. Thanks and Keep on Smokin. Jon

yea, i would like ot know how you do that too, jack. i tried frozen butts, and i couldnt get them done in the middle. i ended up having to cut them in steaks, and resmoke. although the resmoke made the best smokey flavor i ever had, it was too darn much work. ribs, from frozen was no bother at all. chickens, never cooked in the middle, so i had to cut them and recook. im not sure, but i think that was probably dangerous to cook them only to a med state, and then chill and recook.
hey, but if i had a fec like jack, maybe that is the way to go. how yo do it masta?
thanks for the vote of confidence in my taters....
so i read that most outbreaks come from improperly canned goods. i got a heads up kinda warning from the state insurance inspector(one of my customers...) about my home-canned bbq sauces. first he said i dont have a dept of agriculture sticker, or approval, i could be fined greatly for selling home-canned sauces.
i guess i better find out real soon how to get a co-packer....
i been wanting one for a long time, but it aint easy down here....seems like salespersons are slow and forgetful.

1hawsfli and coffebluff,
ok like i said i happened onto the frozen deal while making up a HACCP list. i guess that's what happens when you have too much time alone in the rig and let your note taking get out of hand.
anyway what i have consistantly found is this,and it doesn't matter if i am in my sm150 or the fec100, the time to the same internal temp from frozen or meat in the 34-36f range is the same. now i know it sounds weird but it's the darnedest thing i have seen and it always occurs right around the 8 to 10 hour mark. at that time the internal temps always match. i have used 4 different taylor remote thermos to verify it since at 1st i didn't believe it but 4 thermos can't be wrong.
my cook temps in either unit is 225f (verified with another remote set dead center in the units.
my cook time is 75 mins/pound.
my hold temp (gotta love the sm150) is 175 for transporting purposes. the time in my sm to below a reading of 150f is about 90 mins which gives me plenty of leeway for setup.
my wood load in the sm is the maximum the box will hold.
in no case is the door ever opened in either unit.
my only gut feeling on why this occurs is under the laws of thermodynamics equilibrium is the state that everything aspires to so that may be the force behind it. kind of like putting a pot of cold water and an equal amount pot of hot water on to boil-they both boil at the same time kind of thing.
i just happened to rerun this again last friday/saturday as peg got an emergency order for her frozen pulled pork and i had to cook a picnic that was at 34f with my frozen ones. got the same results as before.
you guys know me well enough to know i have never intentionally given out bogus info. all i can say is get 2 el cheapo taylor remotes from target and see if it works for you.
by the way the weight of raw meat i shoot for is in the 10 pound range and i try to keep the picnics i am cooking about the same size. while all this is going on 1 or 2 briskets are normally going also. they are also frozen.
guys i don't know why it works but it is an anomolly i noticed being bored since i am at the rig from 9am friday thru 2pm saturday and just let my notes get out of hand.
jack

1hawsfli,
figured i would address the frozen thing 1st and then get into the other seperately.
for customers use peggy got a big bottle of hand sanitizer from sam's club.it has a pump type applicator with a clip that limits the amount that comes out. she thought it would be a nice touch and provide us with an extra layer of protection. it does not require any towels as it is meant to be rubbed in and then it just air dries. she places it on our serving shelf and anyone is welcome to use it whether they are buying from us or not.
if you would like i can get the specific brand name and post it this coming sunday in this thread.
this type of sanitizer is getting more popular and i even saw it at the mayo clinic here in jax so it must have some validity.
let me know on the brand name-will be happy to post it
jack

coffebluff,
figured it was ez'er to answer the common question and then do this.
you are right canning is the biggie although just keep watching the news and the link. it's getting salad and fruit time of year and unless i miss my bet we are about due for an outbreak caused by sprouts and strawberries.
the biggest problem with canning i have seen is low acid foods. those have to be pressure canned and the amount of pressure required is determined by the acidty level. way too risky for this boy!! bbq sauce is another ball game though as it is normally high acid but the heads up you got was great. there is a guy at the market who off and on sells bbq sauce. i know he has a co-packer since that is all he sells. if you would like if we see him saturday i could try to get the packers name if he will give it up. i could post it here sunday when i post hawsfli santizer info if he wants it.
let me know
jack

I like having the hand sanitizer available for customers. I don't know about the risk of one person after another using it. And I've heard warnings about using sanitizers creating resistant bacteria. I also bleach the top of the sanitizer pump several times while we're doing business. It makes me feel better. And like Jack says, it is beyond what is expected.
I understand that botulism comes from soil bourne bacteria. I think if you clean off any soil on the potatoes, you should be in good shape. Lettuce can be another problem. There's lots of room for stuff to hide in the crinkles. What's a great way to clean lettuce?
Peggy

Thanks for the additional info Jack and Peggy. I talked to the fellow who provides our porta potty yesterday. He told me he has something similar to that which you use. He is putting a dispensor in our unit in the next day or too and for only $2 a month extra. That is a good deal in my book. I would like to get the make and model on the unit you put on your serving counter. Can't go wrong if we have both bases covered.

On the frozen butts. I can get frozen butts for 10 cents a pound cheaper than fresh. Therefore we will be trying the frozen cook model this next week. We have a big cook coming off of meat for 800 pulled pork sandwiches. We plan to freeze pulled pork in 1 gallon freezer grade zip lock bags. The customer will get the frozen product and bring it to temp on the date of the party in what we call turkey cooker or roaster ovens. If you preceive a problem with this we would appreciate your input. Gotta go. Keep smokin.

sure jack, i would definitely call him up. post away,, when you get his info.
peggy, i worry about lettuce too. all the time. just dont know what to do, as washign is never enough with that stuff. maybe we should have our own portable testing tubes for micro organisms, or some kind of bio degradable sanitizer solution to dunk the heads into. i also worry about cabbage, and other non-wrapped produce items. definitely taking a risks with all this stuff..
i still say a good name for a restaurant is 'salmonella sallies'

1hawsfli,
the one gallon size works great for peg's brunswich stew. we freeze those in the bag in hotel 1/2 pans. gives an exact count of the number needed to fill a pan and works like a charm. the pulled put in that size bag should do great for you. that amount freezes real quick so it's just one least headache. i always figured that the 10 cent a pound break was my reward for trying to be safe. kind of nice being rewarded for just doing the job isn't it?? i hope the butts do as well for you as the picnics do for me and i wish you the best!!! sure sounds like a fun cook to me!!!!!!!
coffeebluff,
ok i will hold the guy down if i got to and peg will pour creamed brisket gravy down his throat until he gives up his co-packer. on lettuce a veggie wash might work but since it is crinnallated(heck corrigated- heck you get the idea) it may or may not work. cabbage for sure it would work. strawberries,raspberries,sprouts forget it. matter of fact was talking to my old exec at the conference center and they simply will no longer supply any menu with sprouts,strawberries or raspberries as their supplier could not guarantee usa product only.
hope everyone has a good profitable weekend and have a good easter or passover or just a good day
jack

quote:

this type of sanitizer is getting more popular and i even saw it at the mayo clinic here in jax so it must have some validity.

The smart people have done studies that show the gel is more effective than hand washing in cutting down the risk of transmitting germs in the health care setting. I walk around with a small container of it in my pocket.

Having this outside your trailer for your customers is a super idea.

ok,
here's the info as promised
hand sanitizer is made by purell and is available at sam's club for about $10 for a 1/2 quart bottle with pump.
on the co-packer
name is florida gourmet (they also do business as island grove). they are located in deland florida and have a website. minimum order is 100 gallons. they take your 1 gallon recipe and expand it.
have a good easter
jack

Just remember to wash off the top of the pump. We've used a gallon size bottle of the sanitizer for a year now. It's about 1/2 empty. It costs about $7.00. That's pretty cheap. It shows that you care about your customers and it sure doesn't hurt on your liability.
Sometimes, though, we'll have somebody that loads up with the gel and then wants to know where the towels are. Just tell them to keep rubbing their hands, it will evaporate. Towels are less sanitary.
Peggy

We are trying to figure out a hand washing station for our on site catering patrons to use before they go through the buffet line.

Any ideas?

The frozen pork (raw) has worked for us. Smoke to 190F , pull and season. Takes about 16 hrs. for the big rascals. Thawing large quanities is a hasell. Our walkins, pizza truck box take-offs, run minus 20-27F.

Roger

Hi,
Jack's cook from froaen definitely works well.

Hand sanitizer,
I do the front window. I have kids come up and use the sanitizer after they've been running around in the woods, and grown ups ask if they can use it after they've gone to the portapotty. It was a cheap thing to buy for my peace of mind. We've been on the same gallon bottle with dispenser for about a year. We have about 1/4 of the bottle still left. It's been kind of funny to me, that the vegetarians and the real picky folks don't seem to wash their hands. The kids want to wash and the older people who eat plain old southern food seem to use it most.
Peggy

mnhog,
glad the frozen worked well for you. makes it ez having just one less thing to think about. peg has done real well just having the container right where people can get at it. on a buffet line it might work just being the 1st thing people see. it would give them something to do and might make the wait more pleasant, along with being a good conversation starter
jack

the hand sanitizer can be bought at Sams for about $7.00 a gallon. The gallon has lasted for a year now. We have about 1/4 gallon left. It comes with a pump. Get ready for jokes about "Is this another sauce?" Or, they could seriously think it's a sauce. A lot of our customers have tried to eat the wood pellet samples! I put a sign up saying "Free sample-Wood pellets, work on any grill, not edible".
Peggy

We will check on the hand sanitizer, it sounds like a good idea.

We have a large gig at a construction site that is building an electical power plant. Last month we were there, and it was 500 union construction workers. We set up 4 lines and had them fed in 40 minutes, with 3 people.

Thanks, Roger