Since we all love smoking so much, where did barbecue originate? Hope this generates an interesting thread.
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I heard this discussed several times and I don't think anyone knows for certain. I like what I found in Wikipedia:
The origins of both the activity of barbecue cooking and the word itself are somewhat obscure. Most etymologists believe that barbecue derives ultimately from the word barbacoa found in the language of the Taíno people of the Caribbean. The word translates as "sacred fire pit." The word describes a grill for cooking meat, consisting of a wooden platform resting on sticks.
The " sacred fire pit." Cool!
The origins of both the activity of barbecue cooking and the word itself are somewhat obscure. Most etymologists believe that barbecue derives ultimately from the word barbacoa found in the language of the Taíno people of the Caribbean. The word translates as "sacred fire pit." The word describes a grill for cooking meat, consisting of a wooden platform resting on sticks.
The " sacred fire pit." Cool!
It originated in North Carolina, of course. Long time ago. Cooking wild pigs over hickory. End of thread. Thanks for asking.
Actually, it was in Lexington, NC. You folks in the eastern part of the state were johnny-come-lately. Viva "Smokey Joe's"
Wheelz could be right, but I was looking for origination here. Any place state, "where barbecue originated."
Maybe Barbecue started in NC but smoked meats don't seem to be very important with most of the NC restaurants I've visited in NC. Although they do a good job out here re-heating green beans
FWIW, I was reading a book recently that said BBQ, or at least something that resembles modern BBQ, likely started after Spanish sailors introduced pigs to central America in the 15-1600's and the indigenous people picked up on the roasting of pigs. I don't know, but I assume they roasted something before, but I don't know what.
This story also implies pretty strongly that BBQ was happening in Spain for some time before the 15-1600's for it to become so ingrained in their culture that they would bring pigs from Spain.
This story also implies pretty strongly that BBQ was happening in Spain for some time before the 15-1600's for it to become so ingrained in their culture that they would bring pigs from Spain.
Gees. We haven't had any Californians step up and claim good Q started in the Golden State.
Well, I'm reading the 2nd of my four new barbecue books. The authors for MASTERING BARBECUE and CELEBRATING BARBECUE give credit for the origination of barbecue to North Carolina.
I actually thought we'd have more posts claiming credit for their respective areas. I guess our barbecue lovers figured that once Todd and Smokin weighed in, the conversation was over.
I've got two books stating that although there are many areas with barbecue styles and variations within those areas, there are four main styles of barbecue--North Carolina, Memphis, Texas, and Kansas City. There was an interesting comment in CELEBRATING BARBECUE concerning the Kansas City version. "...the sauce, usually sweet and hot, is as important as the meat... In Kansas City, what you put the sauce on matters less than the sauce itself." OMG Tom. Where did they go wrong?
That's what makes this barbecuing adventure so interesting. So many styles and variations--literally thousands if you count area variations, rub variations, sauce variations, product variations, technique variations, etc., etc. We buy tools. We read. We forum. We try. We tinker. We experiment. We learn. We gain experience. We take pride in our accomplishments. And we still have more to gain than what we've learned.
Oh well, at least it's fun along the way. And you meet some interesting folks too.
I actually thought we'd have more posts claiming credit for their respective areas. I guess our barbecue lovers figured that once Todd and Smokin weighed in, the conversation was over.
I've got two books stating that although there are many areas with barbecue styles and variations within those areas, there are four main styles of barbecue--North Carolina, Memphis, Texas, and Kansas City. There was an interesting comment in CELEBRATING BARBECUE concerning the Kansas City version. "...the sauce, usually sweet and hot, is as important as the meat... In Kansas City, what you put the sauce on matters less than the sauce itself." OMG Tom. Where did they go wrong?
That's what makes this barbecuing adventure so interesting. So many styles and variations--literally thousands if you count area variations, rub variations, sauce variations, product variations, technique variations, etc., etc. We buy tools. We read. We forum. We try. We tinker. We experiment. We learn. We gain experience. We take pride in our accomplishments. And we still have more to gain than what we've learned.
Oh well, at least it's fun along the way. And you meet some interesting folks too.
Here's an interesting link: http://knol.google.com/k/craig...ned/Q7utufRE/drEwEQ#
In addition to the Spanish connection there is a French phrase "De la Barbe a la Queue" translating to "Head-to-Tail" cooking of a whole animal on a Spit.
In addition to the Spanish connection there is a French phrase "De la Barbe a la Queue" translating to "Head-to-Tail" cooking of a whole animal on a Spit.
quote:Originally posted by Bacchus2b:
Here's an interesting link: http://knol.google.com/k/craig...ned/Q7utufRE/drEwEQ#
In addition to the Spanish connection there is a French phrase "De la Barbe a la Queue" translating to "Head-to-Tail" cooking of a whole animal on a Spit.
Yea. Obviously, the authors are thinking only American and the uniqueness of slow cooking, sauces and rubs. I do believe people elsewhere in the world threw their meat over a fire to cook it a long time ago.
In Warren R. Anderson's Book "Mastering the craft of smoking food" He says "The smoking of meat must be one of the oldest forms of food preparation.There is strong evidence that a Hominid known as "Peking Man" used controlled fire about 500,000 years ago. Based on this, it appears that food smoking may have a history of about half a million years.
quote:Originally posted by Pags:
give credit for the origination of barbecue to North Carolina.
I actually thought we'd have more posts claiming credit for their respective areas. I guess our barbecue lovers figured that once Todd and Smokin weighed in, the conversation was over.
I was just joking. I thought if a spirited discussion was what you wanted, claiming BBQ started in NC would surely give it to you.
But in all seriousness, I was thinking the other day how many variables there are to good BBQ. So many different flavor profiles: fruity, savory, sweet, jerk, etc. are possible with rubs and sauces and woods. And they all have to work together.
In the book Smokestack Lightning, the author talks about being a guest judge at a BBQ comp. It's interesting to hear another judge explain that out of 20 entries, most will be so bad that they won't be edible. The comp will really be between 4-5 entries. That really surprised me. I can imagine food being unremarkable, but "bad" I would not have expected.
Kind of makes you wonder about opening a BBQ joint if 75% of the population can't tell the difference.
Okay, we'll stick to the Origins, but if you TRY to define barbecue (noun, verb; pork only, open fire, etc etc, blah blah)... then you'll REALLY see the fur flying.
By the way, BBQ didn't start until about 1965 when i started cooking over open flames
By the way, BBQ didn't start until about 1965 when i started cooking over open flames
OK. You want spirited. Since electric and gas lines were developed significantly later, it looks like barbecuing (broad definition) must have started started over 500,000 years ago. And Carolinian's are taking credit for it. Pretty presumptuous if you ask me.
I think Smokin is suggesting that the definition of barbecue is long, slow cooking over low temperature and maybe Brontosaurus over a roaring fire doesn't qualify and may actually be an early form of grilling. Either way this thread ain't dead.
I think Smokin is suggesting that the definition of barbecue is long, slow cooking over low temperature and maybe Brontosaurus over a roaring fire doesn't qualify and may actually be an early form of grilling. Either way this thread ain't dead.
quote:Originally posted by Pags:
I think Smokin is suggesting that the definition of barbecue ...
No, I'm saying we can talk the ORIGIN, but not the definition. Pags, you haven't been around but it's a sure way to start a fight to some (there's one guy who had a website in Carolina that was pretty negative to anything no over open coals and ONLY whole hog -- can't find the link)
I have just a couple of BBQ books. One of my favorite is the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Legends-...id=1247248564&sr=1-1
(I hope that link works as intended)
I don't have my book with me but it seems BBQ was an evolving food. I'm sure it will be difficult for anyone to take credit for "inventing" BBQ as it's obvious cooking meat over fire occurred long before Texas, the Carolinas, or any other state/country existed.
It might be best if we momentarily bow our heads in silence to the unknown Neanderthal/cro-magnon/??? of our choice as recognition of this fact. We'll never know though. It could've been those guys on the Geico commercials.
However...popularizing of the modern form is fair game. I'm with Todd, Smoke'n Ice or anybody else on that one. I doubt I'll spend much time researching though. I'd rather be eating.
-Grub
http://www.amazon.com/Legends-...id=1247248564&sr=1-1
(I hope that link works as intended)
I don't have my book with me but it seems BBQ was an evolving food. I'm sure it will be difficult for anyone to take credit for "inventing" BBQ as it's obvious cooking meat over fire occurred long before Texas, the Carolinas, or any other state/country existed.
It might be best if we momentarily bow our heads in silence to the unknown Neanderthal/cro-magnon/??? of our choice as recognition of this fact. We'll never know though. It could've been those guys on the Geico commercials.
However...popularizing of the modern form is fair game. I'm with Todd, Smoke'n Ice or anybody else on that one. I doubt I'll spend much time researching though. I'd rather be eating.
-Grub
Good perspective Grubmeister. I guess I've been trying to popularize the modern form.
So. Don't we have to define it before we really know what it is and where it started? Hee Hee Hee.
Just dawned on me that we could be talking about a number of things. All relevant to some of us. Or am I thread jacking? Or should I heed Smokin's warning and not go there?
So. Don't we have to define it before we really know what it is and where it started? Hee Hee Hee.
Just dawned on me that we could be talking about a number of things. All relevant to some of us. Or am I thread jacking? Or should I heed Smokin's warning and not go there?
Pags,
Any talk of providing a technical definition of BBQ would only get in the way of our pontificating, boasting, grunting and snorting.
They like the food but I think we can all agree the wives probably have a good reason for leading us to believe they're letting us out of the house.
Seriously though...I'm guessing after all these posts we've learned that we can't identify BBQ with a rigid definition. Because of that, we can't really identify its origin either.
I say we just follow Smokin's lead and say it started in 1965. We could use that as the BS and AS point of modern history. Although that would not prevent some from saying there was a whole lot of BS in our AS
-Grub
Any talk of providing a technical definition of BBQ would only get in the way of our pontificating, boasting, grunting and snorting.
They like the food but I think we can all agree the wives probably have a good reason for leading us to believe they're letting us out of the house.
Seriously though...I'm guessing after all these posts we've learned that we can't identify BBQ with a rigid definition. Because of that, we can't really identify its origin either.
I say we just follow Smokin's lead and say it started in 1965. We could use that as the BS and AS point of modern history. Although that would not prevent some from saying there was a whole lot of BS in our AS
-Grub
OK. Oklahoma City,OK,USA 1965
Unless, of course, someone wants to argue.
Unless, of course, someone wants to argue.
It's amazing how things come full circle. First the caveman stuffing a small animal into the stomach of a larger animal, then immersing it in a heated geothermal spring for the worlds first sous vide. And now that immersion heaters are on TV, this technique is once again all the rage.
I can't wait for someone to mount a giant immersion heater on a trailer and show up at Memphis In May. Saying in a thick French accent "My sous vide ist better than you BBQ'uh, you primitive Americans"
Next we'll be looking for the first humanoid to use a sun heated depression in a riverside rock to slow cook a squirrel, in the worlds first crock pot. I've really gone off the deep end now.
I can't wait for someone to mount a giant immersion heater on a trailer and show up at Memphis In May. Saying in a thick French accent "My sous vide ist better than you BBQ'uh, you primitive Americans"
Next we'll be looking for the first humanoid to use a sun heated depression in a riverside rock to slow cook a squirrel, in the worlds first crock pot.
I've really gone off the deep end now.
Todd, I'm telling you, sometimes you not only coming from Left field, but BEYOND left field.
Who else would mention Sous Vide as a cooking technique in a barbecue thread.
That's why now, when I read the forum and you're posting, if I'm drinking coffee it usually ends up on the monitors from me laughing so hard.
Who else would mention Sous Vide as a cooking technique in a barbecue thread.
That's why now, when I read the forum and you're posting, if I'm drinking coffee it usually ends up on the monitors from me laughing so hard.
That's why I drink beer. The stains aren't as noticeable.
???quote:sous vide
Todd G.,
So all this time, that's what I've been doing with my leftover ribs. I thought I was vacuum packing, freezing, then warming them up in hot water.
I'm so proud of myself. I've mastered french cooking.
Err, I think I'll move onto something else now, like BBQ'd sushi.
-Grub
quote:Originally posted by SmokinOkie:
Todd, I'm telling you, sometimes you not only coming from Left field, but BEYOND left field.
Who else would mention Sous Vide as a cooking technique in a barbecue thread.
That's why now, when I read the forum and you're posting, if I'm drinking coffee it usually ends up on the monitors from me laughing so hard.
If you are talking about culinary trends, would it be appropriate to "Foam" the BBQ Sauce for your Sous Vide Q???
Now you can't claim sous Vide unless you cook your ribs that way.
Warming them in a vacuum pack bag after cooking, not SURE if that's Sous Vide, but I'm not a chef, I'm proud to say.
I'm a Pitmaster
Warming them in a vacuum pack bag after cooking, not SURE if that's Sous Vide, but I'm not a chef, I'm proud to say.
I'm a Pitmaster
quote:Now you can't claim sous Vide unless you cook your ribs that way.
sacrebleu!!! That would be heresy! Why the only way I could get real BBQ that way would be...would be...
to build some sort of giant bong like contraption.
Fugetaboutit.
So, if you were to somehow manage to cook your ribs sous Vide, would that make you le Pitmaster?
-Grub
I can think upscale, but I'm really pretty down to earth. I'm working on a BBQ flavored cereal. I figure if there can be a Count Chocula, there can be a Pit Boss BBQ cereal. With beer flavored jelly for the toast, I can see breakfast once again becoming America's favorite meal.
But I do like the idea of foamed BBQ sauce, or maybe little medallions of nitrogen frozen "BBQ essence" as an amuse-bouche.
I'm seeing an app platter with burnt ends, little cubes of perfectly cooked belly, cracklins cooked with super heated helium so they float, solar cooked fat back strips, panko coated pig tails fried until crunchy, and jellied pig snouts all served with baked pig ears formed into little scoops. Yum.
But I do like the idea of foamed BBQ sauce, or maybe little medallions of nitrogen frozen "BBQ essence" as an amuse-bouche.
I'm seeing an app platter with burnt ends, little cubes of perfectly cooked belly, cracklins cooked with super heated helium so they float, solar cooked fat back strips, panko coated pig tails fried until crunchy, and jellied pig snouts all served with baked pig ears formed into little scoops. Yum.
I speak Texan and broken English, so you guys need to start explaining some of these words.
quote:sous vide ist
I had to google this to find out what it was. Doesn't look like smoking to me. I suppose this originated in North Carolina too.
quote:Originally posted by Pags:quote:sous vide ist
I had to google this to find out what it was. Doesn't look like smoking to me. I suppose this originated in North Carolina too.
I think it predated BBQ. Like in the example above where the caveman stuffs an animal into the stomach of another animal and throws it into a hot spring. This could have been done even before the advent of man made fire. Probably started in someplace where they had hot springs and/or volcanoes, but perfected in NC no doubt, then sent to France at the start of the civil war when they (French) were deciding which side to take (or who to surrender to), then to Spain via the kitchens of El Bulli, then back to the US via Thomas Keller at the French Laundry in CA, thereby completing the circle.
And if you really had to look up sous vide, then you need to study up on your molecular gastronomy. There will be a test at the end of the month.
OMG, Todd, stop, I've had to clean my monitor four times now.
I'm SICK of French terms and the French themselves (nothing personal to any French forum members) (especially their Cooking preferences, as they don't think BBQ is a cuisine)
Sous Vide. Circa 1970's
Wikipedia Sous Vide
As far as "amuse-bouche" I'll stick with Appetizer instead:
Wikipedia Amuse bouche
No Wikipedia on Foaming cooking or Nitrogen cooking so I can't explain them, but I've heard of them. thank goodness
Now WHAT was this thread about???
I'm SICK of French terms and the French themselves (nothing personal to any French forum members) (especially their Cooking preferences, as they don't think BBQ is a cuisine)
Sous Vide. Circa 1970's
Wikipedia Sous Vide
As far as "amuse-bouche" I'll stick with Appetizer instead:
Wikipedia Amuse bouche
No Wikipedia on Foaming cooking or Nitrogen cooking so I can't explain them, but I've heard of them. thank goodness
Now WHAT was this thread about???
Glad you noticed Smokin. I was going to report Todd for thread jacking.
Sorry. Sometimes I forget to take my meds and the voices make me do things.
Todd:
Get a life; you have been smoking something other than meats!! Go take your meds!
Geaux Tigers!
Get a life; you have been smoking something other than meats!! Go take your meds!
Geaux Tigers!
In addition to our usual business on running a small restaurant we have had 6 catering jobs this week and my 66 year old body is screaming for rest and I am well into my third drink so feel free to take anything I may say the wrong way but
if u are talking about the process of cooking a whole pig or shoulder low and slow over coals or gas or charcoal where the juices drip down and vaporize into smoke and smoke the meat in its own juices then NC is the place where it originated and is still prepared to culinary perfection in eastern NC with a vinegar based sauce
If u are talking about sticking a piece of pork into a roaring fire then we call that flame broiled not bbq
If u are talking about turning a piece of pork into a blacked soot covered thing that can only be consumed after covering it in a very sweet ketchup based sauce then anyone can feel free to take the credit for starting such a process
Enjoy your bbq
Herman
if u are talking about the process of cooking a whole pig or shoulder low and slow over coals or gas or charcoal where the juices drip down and vaporize into smoke and smoke the meat in its own juices then NC is the place where it originated and is still prepared to culinary perfection in eastern NC with a vinegar based sauce
If u are talking about sticking a piece of pork into a roaring fire then we call that flame broiled not bbq
If u are talking about turning a piece of pork into a blacked soot covered thing that can only be consumed after covering it in a very sweet ketchup based sauce then anyone can feel free to take the credit for starting such a process
Enjoy your bbq
Herman
quote:Originally posted by redoakNC:ok then.. it's settled... next question?quote:Originally posted by hbeaman:...if u are talking about the process of cooking a whole pig or shoulder low and slow over coals or gas or charcoal where the juices drip down and vaporize into smoke and smoke the meat in its own juices then NC is the place where it originated...
My new books would tell you that you are exactly correct. Of course the authors could be some of Todd's "tarheel" relatives.
This is not the origin of barbecue, but is is the origin of the word Buccaneer, which did not originate in Tampa Bay.
buccaneer buc'ca·neer' v.
WORD HISTORY The Errol Flynn–like figure of the buccaneer pillaging the Spanish Main may seem less dashing if we realize that the term buccaneer corresponds to the word barbecuer. The first recorded use of the French word boucanier, which was borrowed into English, referred to a person on the islands of Hispaniola and Tortuga who hunted wild oxen and boars and smoked the meat in a barbecue frame known in French as a boucan. This French word came from a Tupi word meaning “a rack used for roasting or for storing things, or a racklike platform supporting a house.” The original barbecuers seem to have subsequently adopted a more remunerative way of life, piracy, which accounts for the new meaning given to the word. Buccaneer is recorded first in 1661 in its earlier sense in English; the sense we are familiar with is recorded in 1690.
buccaneer buc'ca·neer' v.
WORD HISTORY The Errol Flynn–like figure of the buccaneer pillaging the Spanish Main may seem less dashing if we realize that the term buccaneer corresponds to the word barbecuer. The first recorded use of the French word boucanier, which was borrowed into English, referred to a person on the islands of Hispaniola and Tortuga who hunted wild oxen and boars and smoked the meat in a barbecue frame known in French as a boucan. This French word came from a Tupi word meaning “a rack used for roasting or for storing things, or a racklike platform supporting a house.” The original barbecuers seem to have subsequently adopted a more remunerative way of life, piracy, which accounts for the new meaning given to the word. Buccaneer is recorded first in 1661 in its earlier sense in English; the sense we are familiar with is recorded in 1690.
quote:Originally posted by hbeaman:
...If u are talking about turning a piece of pork into a blacked soot covered thing that can only be consumed after covering it in a very sweet ketchup based sauce then anyone can feel free to take the credit for starting such a process. Herman
Now THAT is the typical NC definition of WHAT is barbecue, and the typical view of the rest of the world. But, since we're NOT talking about the definitions, but the origins, I won't go there