Cal is right. We always hit chicken and ribs at 5 min till and then hit pork on time with brisket at the last minute. I do not want my brisket hanging out waiting for another tray or two to come along before it can go to a table that hasn't seen an entry from our team.
Also.
When the Table Captains keep a list of teams they've already judged. After chicken, in the follow 3 categories, if they get one from a team they've already judged, that one is removed and a team is substituted.
The intent being no table will judge a team more than once, IF possible.
When the Table Captains keep a list of teams they've already judged. After chicken, in the follow 3 categories, if they get one from a team they've already judged, that one is removed and a team is substituted.
The intent being no table will judge a team more than once, IF possible.
Too tag on with Smokin', Table Captains will usually be rotated by the rep, so if one or two tables only get 5 entries. It is that way for everyone. Lots of things to think about, if you want the extra tenths of points.
quote:Originally posted by David Qualls:
Read the judging comments on this site.
It makes me scratch my head...
BBQ Critic
I had not see that site so thanks for posting, but after reading two threads, I quit reading, just seems to prove my concerns about some judges are valid. A lot of MIM judges there, seems a small group. I might go back to read some night when I have a beer and can read and be in the proper "attitude" to take the blog as presented LOL
It worries me that some of them are establsihing standards that aren't there. "Sauce was pooled more than 1/8" so it was DQ'd"
Just look at the photos, clcik on the comments. The disparity between comments just proves it's pot luck to win at a table. Some of these judges make comments that should affect appearance but do. Sad, sad, sad
Sad. Same kind of judges that set that chicken skin must be bite through to be tender.
<Gasp, Arg!!!> A board member is responding...remember it's only my opinion and no way indicative of KCBS or any of the rest of the board may think.
I'm a start at 6 judge, trained in 2004. I thought it was a good idea. Prior to that point in time, judges were trained to start at 9 and score down. Now there is no starting point and there's 3 classes of judges' thinking out there. Remember, the start at 6 process happened because of the year of 200+ perfect scores. Scoring was 9-8-7 in use, not the full range. Thought was to expand the range of numbers by starting at 6 and going up or down. I believe it worked. Cooks weren't happy -- hardly any perfect scores happened that year. Over time, scores have gone back to 9-8-7. Yes, I thing cooks are cooking better. Yes, I think that cooking classes have boosted the "training" stage of competitive BBQ cooks to where they're better starting out than I was at the start. I think that judges are more aware of scores on a table and typically score high (again).
But I know of no way to objectify subjectivity. Nor do I want to do that. I think one of the things that makes BBQ comps great is the fact that I can go to my fellow cooks and get help or ask for something or borrow a cup of sugar and they are willing to help me. In an objective sport like racing, you think that kind of help happens? We cooks are all at the mercy of the judges and that throws us in the same pot.
Do you think the "best" barbeque wins at a contest? I say no...the least offensive food wins. That means the most middle-of-the-road product is what's making it to the top 10. My opinion is that if you make the top 10, you could have won the category. No cook can afford to offend more than one judge.
What is KCBS doing to help bring all judges to one mindset (instead of 3)? Last month, an on-line judges refresher test was rolled out at the banquet. I envision this just getting better as time goes by. There is an effort now to get the MCBJ test on-line as well. Just last Sunday, all the CBJ instructors had a meeting to make sure they are all of the same mindset. How to teach mega-judging classes was discussed at the board's strategy session last Saturday. CBJ classes with 100+ students are not effectively taught using the old method. A PowerPoint presentation is out there that standardizes the teaching process. With the roll out of KCBScore (the new scoring program), judges scores will be tracked. Old software couldn't handle it.
Those of us on the board at KCBS are working hard to make KCBS contests better. I'm really excited about the new board -- it's going to be a really good year for all of KCBS!
I'm a start at 6 judge, trained in 2004. I thought it was a good idea. Prior to that point in time, judges were trained to start at 9 and score down. Now there is no starting point and there's 3 classes of judges' thinking out there. Remember, the start at 6 process happened because of the year of 200+ perfect scores. Scoring was 9-8-7 in use, not the full range. Thought was to expand the range of numbers by starting at 6 and going up or down. I believe it worked. Cooks weren't happy -- hardly any perfect scores happened that year. Over time, scores have gone back to 9-8-7. Yes, I thing cooks are cooking better. Yes, I think that cooking classes have boosted the "training" stage of competitive BBQ cooks to where they're better starting out than I was at the start. I think that judges are more aware of scores on a table and typically score high (again).
But I know of no way to objectify subjectivity. Nor do I want to do that. I think one of the things that makes BBQ comps great is the fact that I can go to my fellow cooks and get help or ask for something or borrow a cup of sugar and they are willing to help me. In an objective sport like racing, you think that kind of help happens? We cooks are all at the mercy of the judges and that throws us in the same pot.
Do you think the "best" barbeque wins at a contest? I say no...the least offensive food wins. That means the most middle-of-the-road product is what's making it to the top 10. My opinion is that if you make the top 10, you could have won the category. No cook can afford to offend more than one judge.
What is KCBS doing to help bring all judges to one mindset (instead of 3)? Last month, an on-line judges refresher test was rolled out at the banquet. I envision this just getting better as time goes by. There is an effort now to get the MCBJ test on-line as well. Just last Sunday, all the CBJ instructors had a meeting to make sure they are all of the same mindset. How to teach mega-judging classes was discussed at the board's strategy session last Saturday. CBJ classes with 100+ students are not effectively taught using the old method. A PowerPoint presentation is out there that standardizes the teaching process. With the roll out of KCBScore (the new scoring program), judges scores will be tracked. Old software couldn't handle it.
Those of us on the board at KCBS are working hard to make KCBS contests better. I'm really excited about the new board -- it's going to be a really good year for all of KCBS!
Thanks Candy!
+1 for a Board member replying! Thanks Candy!
Candy Sue,
Great Post and thanks for commenting. I made a statement on my video that didn't make it in the final edit, that "You can't codify the human taste bud" and that is exactly what you were referring to as "least offensive food wins"
my two cents would that if you really wanted to overhaul the competitions and increase the objectivity and participation look at this...
Drop Chicken
Have 8 judges and drop the top and bottom score.
Kill the garnish and issue Green Butcher Paper Sheets like the old butcher shops used to creat a uniform contrasting background where the only focus is on the meat...
KCBS is a big enough orginazation to go to a larger box that can be produced especially for KCBS that will handle more quantity for 8 judges. I think the 9x9 is sufficient but the box differs from comp to comp and doesn't need to. they can be dropped shipped to the reps in bulk with the background paper and "Poof" parity in Appearance. After all is is a meat contest and not wasting the produce is good for the cooks economy as well as the environment!
Just my two cents. By the way, I also love what you produce for your day job, but I don't want to cross Promote!
Thank You for your work as KCBS President, As the 5 term Chairman of Oklahoma's $25 Billion Dollar Indian Gaming Industry, I realize you can't please your members much more than 30% of the time let alone 100%. You just have to make them confident in the fact that the 70% is for the greater good of the whole group!
Great Post and thanks for commenting. I made a statement on my video that didn't make it in the final edit, that "You can't codify the human taste bud" and that is exactly what you were referring to as "least offensive food wins"
my two cents would that if you really wanted to overhaul the competitions and increase the objectivity and participation look at this...
Drop Chicken
Have 8 judges and drop the top and bottom score.
Kill the garnish and issue Green Butcher Paper Sheets like the old butcher shops used to creat a uniform contrasting background where the only focus is on the meat...
KCBS is a big enough orginazation to go to a larger box that can be produced especially for KCBS that will handle more quantity for 8 judges. I think the 9x9 is sufficient but the box differs from comp to comp and doesn't need to. they can be dropped shipped to the reps in bulk with the background paper and "Poof" parity in Appearance. After all is is a meat contest and not wasting the produce is good for the cooks economy as well as the environment!
Just my two cents. By the way, I also love what you produce for your day job, but I don't want to cross Promote!
Thank You for your work as KCBS President, As the 5 term Chairman of Oklahoma's $25 Billion Dollar Indian Gaming Industry, I realize you can't please your members much more than 30% of the time let alone 100%. You just have to make them confident in the fact that the 70% is for the greater good of the whole group!
Thanks Candy!
I have to say, and applaud, it appears that Jeff and you are not afraid to give your personal opinion. Seen a lot of board members talking about being open, but they seem to have faded a little, oh well!
Anyone want to talk about "hot" tables and how they come about? I can tell you from experience that I have become friends with some FINE judges, in fact, some that have judged over 60 contest, one that has judged over 100 contests. They have no problem giving a 9 out when it is deserved, but what I do like is they have become good friends and share my love of BBQ...so we set together as much as we can, with a few others that we have become friends with. Can't really say we are a "hot" table, but if I was a top 25 cook and could cook consistent, might not be a bad table to get...but then again we don't look/makeup ways to score down cooks.
Oh I wouldn't get caught up in appearance scores that someone can set for minutes and judge, just ain't the way it is done at a table.
I have to say, and applaud, it appears that Jeff and you are not afraid to give your personal opinion. Seen a lot of board members talking about being open, but they seem to have faded a little, oh well!
Anyone want to talk about "hot" tables and how they come about? I can tell you from experience that I have become friends with some FINE judges, in fact, some that have judged over 60 contest, one that has judged over 100 contests. They have no problem giving a 9 out when it is deserved, but what I do like is they have become good friends and share my love of BBQ...so we set together as much as we can, with a few others that we have become friends with. Can't really say we are a "hot" table, but if I was a top 25 cook and could cook consistent, might not be a bad table to get...but then again we don't look/makeup ways to score down cooks.
Oh I wouldn't get caught up in appearance scores that someone can set for minutes and judge, just ain't the way it is done at a table.
Thanks for the comment Candy Sue. It's great to hear the online refresher is becoming a reality sooner than later and that the instructors are making an effort to all be on the same page.
quote:Originally posted by Candy Sue:
...But I know of no way to objectify subjectivity. Nor do I want to do that. ... In an objective sport like racing, you think that kind of help happens?
CS, thanks for responding, I appreciate BoD that are involved and you're trying to be involved and I DO appreciate that.
I would have to say the above argument isn't really valid. Racing isn't objective. It's pretty clear who crosses the finish line first
As for defining subjective, it's all about training. You can and should train judges better. They're only as good as the training and if the training is focused more on what determines a disqualification, then it's missing the boat. Have you taken the training lately? It's pretty subjective.
And what about all the notices to the reps. Should the continuing education of judges be a priority (for example, photo based effect to train). It's all difficult, but necessary.
Basketball referees have a lot of calls that are subject to interpretation by the ref.
But there is someone that monitors them.
What's wrong with definining the scores and what IS BBQ better.
Just because it's hard, doesn't mean it can't be done.
For example. This year's rule talks about deep frying and par boiling.
So if I cook chicken in fat (frying) and it's above boiling, isn't that par boiling. That should be defined, not left up to the judges to interpret.
Is it hard, and a difficult concept. Absolutely, but the goal of KCBS is to further BBQ, I also think it's a fiduciary responsibility to the teams competing to provide the best judging possible.
Racing is objective - it is clear which car, horse, dog crosses the finish line first, even if it takes a photo to do it.
Someone who has been around alot more comps than me told me once that statistically at a 50 team contest, generally there are only 18-20 that can cook all 4 categories consistently. That's one reason why the same teams rise up, time after time.
I do believe that judges should be trained better. Open for suggestions on how to make that happen!
Personal Peeve: Why have an unenforceable rule? Is there going to be a time when every team has a personal watcher to guarantee full compliance? If so, I ain't playing anymore. The stupid pork rule was put in place to stop a particular behavior -- it didn't stop it. Why did we have to mess with pork collar? It was blatantly against the less than 5 lb. rule!
The thing this year is sous vide cooking. Had to look up a definition to figure out what that meant. Know it's not barbeque!
David, I'm with you on garnish. Harder to make a good looking box without it...
Someone who has been around alot more comps than me told me once that statistically at a 50 team contest, generally there are only 18-20 that can cook all 4 categories consistently. That's one reason why the same teams rise up, time after time.
I do believe that judges should be trained better. Open for suggestions on how to make that happen!
Personal Peeve: Why have an unenforceable rule? Is there going to be a time when every team has a personal watcher to guarantee full compliance? If so, I ain't playing anymore. The stupid pork rule was put in place to stop a particular behavior -- it didn't stop it. Why did we have to mess with pork collar? It was blatantly against the less than 5 lb. rule!
The thing this year is sous vide cooking. Had to look up a definition to figure out what that meant. Know it's not barbeque!
David, I'm with you on garnish. Harder to make a good looking box without it...
A quick note on garnish.
When we put together the FLBBQAssoc,we tried to take the best from KCBS and MIM,since we all cooked in one,or both.
Altho we cook primarily KCBS,many of us cook qualifiers in FBA,which has no garnish.
Most seem to adjust back and forth without lots of problems-especially when it takes us those two cases of lettuce,or parsley to build four boxes.
When we put together the FLBBQAssoc,we tried to take the best from KCBS and MIM,since we all cooked in one,or both.
Altho we cook primarily KCBS,many of us cook qualifiers in FBA,which has no garnish.
Most seem to adjust back and forth without lots of problems-especially when it takes us those two cases of lettuce,or parsley to build four boxes.
quote:Originally posted by Candy Sue:
I do believe that judges should be trained better. Open for suggestions on how to make that happen!
I believe if the scores for the table were given by the Table Captains and then were discussed by judges with their samples still on their plate, it would help train younger judges quicker and better. Of course this would be done after score cards were taken from judges.
I believe that the definition that is assigned to a score of 3 be dropped and all definitions be moved down one with 8's being EXCELLENT, then a new definition of 9 being"PERFECT". The reps would then tell everyone/judges before scoring starts of KCBS's desire that only 9's were to be given to "perfect" BBQ.
quote:Originally posted by Candy Sue:
Last month, an on-line judges refresher test was rolled out at the banquet. I envision this just getting better as time goes by.
Took the test, got a 100%. Didn't help define what or how I judge a overcooked rib. Didn't define what excellent que was or even what average que was. That is a good question is average que average for comps or for bbq in general, haven't been taught that.