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Took the plunge and ordered mine......Okay, so this morning I was literally on my way out the door headed to Wal-mart to pick up a Great Outdoors LP Smoker. Something told me to take one last look on the net before I left and next thing I know I seemed to have purchased a 008. I wanted the bigger model, but since I was already killing my budget I thought I had better try and hold the line somewhere. The other smoker was only 149.00, but I figured I could always buy it later to supplement the 008, or even better, get another 008 later if it's as good as everyone says. But here's the concern....

My family owned a BBQ reataurant for 48 years and I've tended my share of smokers through the night. I've been using an electric Brinkman for several years now with good results, but still wanted something that could be temp controlled without having to unplug. The repeated blurbs on this site about "having smoked meat waiting when you get home" sold me. I want carefree and easy. No stress. But now I see some people reporting cook times of 18-24hrs+ for a butt. Whoa! Can this be? I am used to 8-10hrs on the Brinkman when I monitor it closely to keep it in the 250-275 range. Is there any explanation for the extreme cook times some people seem to be having to deal with? I can't plan ahead 24hrs just to have meat. Thoughts and soothing comments appreciated. Thanks
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No.

Think of us as your virtual support group.

Have you used it yet? What are your times? The key is getting the butt done to the point you want and it takes what it takes, but 24 hours for a butt seems long for me. Unless I set it at 200 and want it to go 24 hours.

And don't forget, there's a money back guarantee.

I've never had a butt take more than 1.5 hours per pound and I don't think the times reported are what everyone gets, you're seeing some differences. Haven't ever figured out why there's take that long, but for them it does.

Don't have remore if you haven't used it much or any, try it and see.

Smokin'
Relax. Don't worry. Most of the butts I've done have been around 1.5 hours per pound at a 225 degree setting. At 250 degrees you'll be looking at probably an 1 per pound. And like Smokin' said, there are times I lower the heat to 200 to adjust my finish time. (to coincide with the end of my golf round)
There should be a big difference in cooking time between 225F in the CS and 275F in a Brinkman. On the other hand, there's 2 ways to think about cooking time: The elapsed time from beginning to end, or the amount of time you have to stand next to the unit fiddling with it. CS really saves you on the latter.
If you crank up the heat to 250+*, like your other smoker that was cooking at high temps, you'll likely get the butts done quicker, at 1.5 hours or less per pound as others have reported.

I cook butts at 225*, and they usually take 2 hours per pound, but cooking them low and long (till the butts reach an internal temp of 195*) makes them more tender and melts more of the fat. If you try the longer cook times at a lower temp, I bet you'll like the results better.

If you can't wait that long, maybe you'll want to smoke more ribs, turkey breasts and thin briskets, which can be done much more quickly.

As many in these forums have astutely pointed out before, when the process of smoking the meat doesn't take as much of your time (as with the Cookshack), you'll likely use it more because it's much more convenient than the Walmart smoker. However, if you enjoy fiddling with the smoker and constantly tending the fire and temps -- and many people do -- maybe the Smokette isn't for you.

It's kind of like making your own beer. I wouldn't drink nearly as much of it if I had to spend a lot of my own time and effort to make it Big Grin . But when its more convenient, and you can pick up a case on your way home from work, you drink a lot more of it. Some more ambitious people, however, prefer home brewing and there's nothing wrong with that if you enjoy it and have a lot of time to do it.
Thanks for your replies. I was hungry when I wrote my question and 24 hours just seemed like an eternity. 12hrs cook time, give or take, is fine. The end result is all that matters, I just want to have some general idea of when things will be done so I can plan around the finish time. Really, the idea of 20hr+ cooking times concerned me from a safety stand point. That implies a very slow movement through the "danger zone", and for pork at least, I would be a little concerned. I think some of the times arealso based on cold if not slightly frozen meat. I typically let my meat approach room temp before putting it on the smoker. I can't wait to get my smoker. Should be here by next Wednesday.
Big Grin TODD G- you will not be soory you ordered tour 008!!! got mine back in march. 7 briskets,8 butts,6 chickens,6 ducks,4 salmon, 2 turky breasts, 7 full slab spares, cheese. all came out wonderfull!! im one of those that experience long cook times on butts and briskets, or anything to 190-200 internal, sometimes up to 3hr/lb, but they all came out graet!! i think i am understanding the (it is done when it is done thing) you will enjoy as of us here do. Cool
Todd
welcome to the forum....
This is the best bunch of folks you can find on the subject of que... Cooking is not an exact science each person as I am sure you must know by now adds their own "twist" to their process. For me a butt takes about 15 hours, the reason is because I put it on in the evening late so it will come off just before lunch the next day. If I'm in a hurry I can speed the time up to about 10 hours or so if needed but I seldom get in a hurry for much of anything so my "twist" is a low temp long(er) cook time approach with some spice. I have had my smoker 009 for over a year now and have used other types of smokers including an offset and an electric, "for ease of operation and quality of product" I have not seen anything that compares to the cookshack product. The posts I see about the time and temperature problems have been there ever since I have belonged to the forum. I bought my 009 under the pretense that I could and would return it because I just could not justfy the price... when the smoker arrived I had ribbs waiting on it, then a brisket, then a butt, then chicken at the end of the first week, well lets just I still have my 009 and the offset pit is a piece of patio decor along with the ole hickory electric smoker... You'll like it just remember there is a small learning curve as far a time and seasoning and wood and charcoal enter into the equasion... once again welcome to cookshack nation and let us know how your first and second smokes go...
Thanks, Vernon and others for the welcome. This forum and it's tone greatly influenced my decision to blow my budget and buy the CS. I'm pretty sure I'll be happy. I've read many, many posts now and I think I have a good time waiting for me when my 008 gets here next week.

There sure are a lot of posts though about faulty thermostats. It isn't a big problem since CS has a great customer service department, but it seems a shame that a more reliable part can't be found. If mine is defective when I get it I'll be one unhappy camper because I'm having major BBQ withdrawl pains as I write this. I started to do one last butt on my Brinkman today, but decided to wait for the new CS. I've eaten all my frozen Que, so I'll be SOL if I can't use mine quick when it gets here. I may just sit down and cry..........
All I can tell you is that I too blew my budget when I ordered my 009 10 months ago.

I was using a gas fired Brinkmann water smoker with great results on everything I smoked, due mainly to all the help I received from the folks on this forum.

Am I sorry I spent the money on the Smokette?? Absolutely not. I love this unit. I wish I could have afforded the bigger model, but the wife would have divorced me for sure. Although the Smokette has made a believer out her.

It's easier to clean, and I love the idea that you don't have to babysit this thing.

I do shoulders in the 8.5 - 9 lb. range and take them to 195 deg. in 17-18 hrs.

This week I just started making jerky (QDogg's method) and again...great results.

Well...gotta run....have another batch of jerky ready to go into the Smokette.
Todd G.

Slight correction, I don't see a lot of posts about faulty thermostats. Very few in fact. What I do see are a lot of posts about the temp fluctions and similar topics.

Don't worry until you've had the unit and used it a few times. There's a little bit of a learning curve, but it's not much.

Smokin'
This is a great forum. I have a Great Outdoors gas smoker which I have good success with. I realize that I must ultimately possess a CS smoker, but in the meantime, wanted to make a post about some food science clips that have been helpful to me. I address them to Todd G's helpful issue about cooking times and the effects temperature has on tenderising different cuts of meat.

Note:siteadmin, sorry if this is hogging. First time poster...

About Collagen Breakdown In Meat

http://www.sweetbabymedia.com/recipes/allbynumber3/013001.shtml
John Isenhouer asked for a thesis on collagen. It won't take a thesis to discuss the process as it relates to BBQ. Meats are made of muscle, connective tissue, fat and bone. Muscle contains proteins and glycogen. As the temperature of the meat increases, glycogen, a long chain sugar, is reduced to simple sugars. This caramelizes and is responsible for one of the flavor components. Proteins (flavorless) are denatured to amino acids which not only have flavors themselves, but undergo Maillard browning reactions which adds another flavor component. While bone adds no flavor itself, the marrow is rich in methyglobulin and other proteins. This reacts with smoke nitrites to give us the smoke ring. You may have heard that "the sweetest meat is next to the bone". The proteins are reduced to amino acids. Nutrasweet is an amino acid. Fat is very simple cells which breakdown to sugars, fatty acids, and triglycerides at low temperatures. Collagen is proteins that have lots of side chain bonds. This makes them elastic. It takes more energy to denature them than the simpler proteins of muscle tissue. Energy in the form of heat will denature these proteins into the flavorful amino acids. If the temperature is too high, the water in the muscle cells and the fat is rendered out before the collagen melts. This results in dry, tough meat. Too low and you risk bacterial activity. Tough cuts of meat like brisket and pork butts benefit from low temperature cooking as the collagen adds flavor to the meat. Less tough, more expensive cuts do not need this phase and can be cooked at high temperatures for shorter periods. That is why ribs take only a few hours and briskets take 20.

Recipegoldmine.com
Fat can only be rendered in a dry cooking environment over a long period of time and at low temperatures. Here is what happens . . . the meat must attain a temperature of 160� - 170� to start the fat rendering process. At these temps, the meat temperature will 'plateau' . . . that is, it will stay at these temps for up to 2 hours on ribs and 4 and 5 hours on butts and briskets. What is happening is, the collagen (connective tissue) starts to break down . . . this process releases water, which in turn causes a cooling of the meat. So the temps stay steady. This collagen breakdown is what makes meat so tender.
Once this collagen completely breaks down, the temps will start to rise. It is this process that allows all of the fat to be rendered from a rib.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jan2001/980785018.Cb.r.html
I will answer your question based on my knowledge of Food Science and information provided in the text "Foundations of Food Preparation" 1996. 6th edition, J. Freeland-Graves & G. Peckham, Prentice Hall, Englewood Cliffs, NJ.
As the temperature increases during cooking, enzymes in the interior of the meat that degrade muscle proteins are activated. Between 104-122 F, protein chains begin to unfold and denature (proteins lose their quaternary and tertiary structure. These changes eventually cause the structure of the myofibrils to break and shorten. As the protein molecules aggregate, immobilized water is freed, decreasing the ability of the meat to hold water. You referred to this change in your question.
Protien denaturation and water loss from the muscle contribute to increase in toughness of meat during cooking. High temperatures results in the fat melting, and this fat can be absorbed by the meat or lost as drippings. The fat that covers the surface of the meat reduces water loss, which can aid in maintaining juiciness. Heat can also tenderize meat by breaking down connective tissue (collagen). The heat can denature the collagen resulting in the hydrolysis of the protein chains. The end product of this process is the formation of gelatin. Cooking at low temperatures for long periods of time causes two changes (1) Hydrolysis of collagen and (2) Breakdown of muscle fibers by proteolytic enzymes.
These two processes result in meat that is more tender. This is why it is recommended that one use slow cooking methods for tougher cuts of meat (i.e. pot roast). The color change that occurs to meat on cooking is a results of myoglobin breakdown (pigment that causes fresh hamburger to be red - oxymyoglobin). The surface of cooked meat browns as a result of the partial breakdown of its proteins, fat, pigments and other constituents. The browning that occurs on the surface of fried meat is the result of the Maillard reaction (reaction between the carbonyl group of a reducing sugar and and amino acid or amino group (i.e. that found on lysine)of a protein or peptide.
I hope this answers you question. Sincerely, Al Bushway, Professor of Food Science

http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=40548#ref
If the object is to raise the internal temperature of the meat to 60C/140F, then why put it in a 200C/400F oven, overcook the outside, undercook the inside and hope they even out during the resting period? They won�t. The heat changes are irreversible. All that happens is the inside cooks a bit more from the retained heat and some of the juices squeezed out from the middle migrate a bit to the outside.
A much better idea is to put the meat in a much lower oven, say 65C/150F, for a long enough time for the entire joint to come up to temperature � about 5 hours. This also has the beneficial effect of letting the collagen denature to gelatin, as we shall see later. The meat will be uniformly tender, juicy and delicious. People will marvel. There is no danger of overcooking, so timing is not critical.
Stewing, boiling, or braising uses wet heat, and another mechanism comes into play. The glue that holds the muscle together dissolves slowly. This glue is made up of different proteins, primarily collagen. Collagen consists of three strands of molecules wound around each other. The older the animal, the greater the amount of collagen. Likewise, the more active the muscle, the greater the amount of collagen.
With long, slow cooking, those strands will unwind and turn to soft, succulent gelatin, providing the juiciness to tough cuts of stewing beef like oxtail and shin This however is a comparatively slow process. If you cook it long enough for all of the collagen to turn to gelatin, and hot enough for the contraction of the meat to squeeze out the liquid, you have just the cooked meat fibers. If they have been overcooked, you are left with irretrievably dry and stringy meat. Even if it is swimming in liquid, you can�t get that juiciness back into the fibers that the curled up proteins have squeezed out.
Collagen starts to turn into gelatin and dissolve at around 60C/140F. This process (and also the fat melting) takes energy. Experienced BBQ cooks know that during the long slow smoking of brisket there is a "temperature stall" at around 72C/165F, where the internal temperature, instead of continuing to climb, stays steady for a long time before increasing again. That is the period the collagen is converting to gelatin. Once the temperature starts to climb again the conversion is complete, and the meat is tender. Any more cooking tends to dry the meat without improving tenderness.
Heston Blumenthal says that softening the collagen also improves even normally tender cuts of meat, such as the roast beef above. He suggests holding the temperature of the beef for up to 10 hours at 55C/130F (longer will start to generate �off� flavors) to make beef that is "unbelievably tender."
Wet cooking is appropriate for the tougher (but flavorful) pieces of meat that have a lot of connective tissue. The long, slow moist cooking melts the toughness into smooth unctuousness. The tougher pieces of meat can stand the long cooking and will become tender as the collagen dissolves. Even so, although they are fairly tolerant, overheat them and they too will fall apart into dry, tough shreds. These joints have much more flavour than the softer joints

?????
Fish has little collagen and is tender. Beef is relatively high in collagen and is "tougher". Meats can be tenderized by breaking down the structural organization of the collagen, i.e. denaturing the protein. There are several ways to denature collagen. Marinating meat with acids (vinegar or wine) will do it and treating meat with other highly specialized proteins called enzymes will do it. Boiling or stewing for a long period of time will transform it from a water insoluble substance into a water soluble, gummy, glue-like material. The word collagen is derived from a Greek word meaning "glue producing", which is one commercial application for the denatured protein. Another commercial use is as gelatin, a thickener for soups and deserts.

End of message
Todd,
Thank you for this post. As I am smoker-challenged, this forum is great for me. I, too, am afraid of the difference between a cookshack and a brinkmans. We have a charcoal brinkman and my husband turns out great stuff on it. I am freezing his leftovers and using them for Brunswick stew and salads. We're waiting on our Cookshack smokers because the trailer that's being built just isn't built yet.
We want to do competition and catering with ours.
I enjoyed Lang's post as it sounds like studying for the chef's exam Jack, my husband, had to take.
Let us know how you like the smoker. I'm hoping you find it meets all your expectations.
As I write this at 8:50pm, I have been the proud owner of a new cookshack 008 for less than an hour. Let me correct myself; THE VERY PROUD OWNER! UPS did a great job and got it here a day sooner than expected and in great shape. I already have the seasoning wood smoking. CS's site and pictures do not do this item justice. It is extremely well built. I was expecting the sturdy but rough level of construction I have seen on Brinkmans and elsewhere. What I got far exceeded my expectations. EXCELLENT quality. Please excuse the title of this listing because I have never been further from buyers remorse than I am right now. The best part is that I have at least 3-4 days of nice weather to look forward to now that hurricane Alice(Alex?) has stopped dumping rain on us here in NC. Let's see.....Wednesday a butt or two. Thursday is ribs day for sure. Friday seems like a good day for brisket. Saturday just begs for chicken. And then Sunday feels like some prime rib to me. I'll worry about Monday a little later. Happy, happy, happy.
When I do whole chickens I put a sprig or two and a clove of garlic in with my wood -- and when I can manage to get my chicken to sit on a beer can -- I do that too (I have a heck of a time with that -- so most times after I give up I just splash a bit into the chicken cavity) I also smear it with mayo and sprinkle with the chicken rub from CS. I don't eat the skin ( a texture thing - DH loves it) but the chicken is to die for........
After smelling the smoke for several hours last night as my new CS seasoned, I found that I had worked up a powerful hunger so I changed my planned cook schedule a wee bit. I hit the Harris Teeter about 1:00am and picked up two disimilar sized(5# & 8.5#) butts, and 36 whole wings. The wings went into Carolina Treet sauce(www.carolinatreet.com) that I've been eating since I was a kid, and the butts went into the smoker about 3:00am at 225* with 3-4oz of hickory.

The small butt was at 190* at 10:30am, and came out at 12:15pm @ 200*. Beautiful and tasty and nicely barked. The bigger butt was at 165* at the same time. Guessing on cook times, I went ahead and put the wings in with about 1oz of additional hickory at 2:00pm, stil at 225*. I'm hoping that the wings and butt will both finish up around 5:00ish, and I'll plan on finishing the wings off under the broiler to crisp them up before I start feeding, uhhhhh....I mean eating. Yummmmmm! Very happy. Very, very happy.

I've never smoked with the Carolina Treet sauce. We always joke that it's main ingredient must be kerosene because it flares up so badly on the grill. It can be a real challenge to control, but fortunately it tastes great burned so that has never been a real problem unless we happened to be grilling too close to the house or forgot to place the garden hose within easy reach. However, if it works well in the smoker, I might never need to use the grill again. If that's the case, I'll have to start shaving my eyebrows because people have gotten used to seeing me without them in the summer. Smiler

Headed to the kitchen now to whip up a little red BBQ slaw and get the baked beans going. Mark it on your calendar folks, this is a good day.
Todd

I'm so happy for you! It sounds like you really like your smoker.

Now, what is red BBQ slaw? Could you post that recipe?

For the beercan chicken, it helps to balance them on a pan like a tripod. Put the legs forward of the breast with the can in the butt end as the back leg of the tripod. Carry them to the smoker. Don't forget to tuck the wings under. Then transfer them to the smoker. They kind of hold the same shape if you take your time positioning them before you transfer. I guess that might be like rigor mortis, lol.

Peggy
2 Greyhounds....SMOKIN!!!!
Well 2greyhounds,

I was trying to be nice for a while before I started trouble around here, but since you asked about the slaw, let me explain. You see, some misguided folks around the country, even here in NC, serve mayonaise based slaw or even mustard based slaw with their Que. Now these folks mean well, so I don't want to be overly harsh, but they're just not living right. Smiler I live in Raleigh, NC now and while I have come to enjoy some versions of "eastern" NC BBQ with it's almost pure vinegar sauce, I haven't been able to warm up to the slaw around these parts. I grew up in Greensboro where we served Lexington style BBQ and slaw in our restaurant. As different as night is from day as far as eastern style BBQ is concerned. Lexington style BBQ is served with a vinegar based dip that is about equal parts cider vinegar to ketchup, with garlic powder, salt, black and red pepper, and sugar added to it. Try this on for size:

Lexington style dip
1 gallon water
1 qt. ketchup
1 qt. vinegar/ cider
10 oz sugar
8 oz salt
4 oz black pepper
4 oz crushed red pepper(or more)
1 teaspoon ground red pepper (cayenne)
1 teaspoon garlic powder

Preparation: Combine all ingredients into a 1.5 gallon stock potand bring to a boil, stirring occasionally. Spoon the piping hot dip onto the prepared meat just prior to serving. This is a very thin sauce.

Red slaw is made with green cabbage, cider vinegar, ketchup, and spices. Break this down to fit your needs, but this is the recipe we used for about 50 years. Here is how it goes:
Ingredients:
100 lb. medium/small texture chopped cabbage
6 qt. ketchup
8-10 lb. sugar-try with 8 then add more to taste
1/2 gal. cider vinegar(+/-) better too thin than too thick-slaw should have consistency of wet cabbage
6 oz. salt
8 oz. black pepper
1 tablespoon ground red pepper

Preparation:
Mix all dry ingredients into the chopped cabbage, and let sit for 20 minutes. Then add the wet ingredients and mix well. Allow to refrigerate as long as possible before serving, best over night. This has more in common with Korean Kim Chee than it does most slaws you run into.

BTW, don't get me started on all the BBQ books by "experts" that talk about Carolina style mustard sauce without putting the word -SOUTH- in front of Carolina. I have never, not ever, seen mustard based sauce in a NC BBQ joint until just the last couple of years or so. It is the norm in parts of SC, but it was completely unheard of around these parts until some of the BBQ chains started offering it recently.

Also, both these recipes were taken from the internet(just so I didn't have to re-type them), but are identical to the one's we used from 1944 until we closed in 1993 so no credit is given, but none is taken either. These are the standards for central NC BBQ places.

Lastly, here is a link to my wings I made today. This is before I put them under the broiler for a few minutes. I thought they had beautiful color. Took about 3 hours at 225*. They're gone now I'm sorry to say. So good I already have more in the marinade for tomorrow.
http://home.nc.rr.com/htgriff/Good%20Wings.JPG

On an even more positive note, my mailman(or lady) came by just as I took my second butt out of the CS today. She asked what it was and I told her, then she said that she and her husband had a Holland smoker but their butts never looked like mine did. I let her try a piece. A small piece(I have heard that if you feed govn't employees they start hanging around, so I'm careful). She said their meat never tasted like mine either. I took it as a compliment because she kept reaching for the pan I had the meat in, which I held just out of her reach. Smiler I gave credit where it's due, and showed her the box my CS came in yesterday. I think I just sold one for 'ya CS!
Man!, that buyer's remorse is a terrible thing. My greatest remorse is that I wasted 20 years tending a pit every night when I could have been out picking up girls, all so I could develop the skill that would allow me to plug in my Smokette and turn the knob to 225* before I went to bed. Seriously, when I went to college years ago, I opened up a box of clothes my mother sent me that I had used in HS. The smell of BBQ was something to take in, even though everything was washed. The only girl I would have ever found wearing those clothes would have had to be the daughter of a bacon producer. At least that's my excuse. It wouldn't have hurt anything if I had could have looked like Brad Pitt either. Smiler

Did some fake pastrami yesterday and it was great! Highly recomended. Here are some pictures of todays crop of goodies.
Nice picnic. Good bark.

Perfect Que, I mean Barbeque.

And for something a little different, how about some beef....

You wouldn't like them anyway.


Sorry for the long post. Remorseful people need to vent.

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