Hey, Guys....I can't get anyone to bite on my open forum question " do fresh herbs and spices make a difference on long cooks i.e.,Q."....If you haven't had a chance to read it yet, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Tom: I'll bite. I'm a Gator.
Never mind.
I think there is a lot of self deception going on around here. I like to eat a good rub by the spoon full. But, after 10 hrs of smoking, what seemed good then is totally changed. Only cayanne, salt and sugar survive. Forget it. The rest is BS. Only the primo primaries survive a big smoke. Maybe paprika. No, not even that.
Fresh herbs? I'd say, trivial. Unless they are rotten with Florida mildew. 10 hrs of smoke dominates (plus salt, sweet, sour) all other manipulations of a hunk of flesh.
It's true. But, nobody will believe it. Heat and smoke will clobber most things you put on a big roast for a long, slow smoke.
But, I am but a humble person. Who has just done another perfect set of game hens in 90 mins. Good chow.
What do you think?
acarriii
Never mind.
I think there is a lot of self deception going on around here. I like to eat a good rub by the spoon full. But, after 10 hrs of smoking, what seemed good then is totally changed. Only cayanne, salt and sugar survive. Forget it. The rest is BS. Only the primo primaries survive a big smoke. Maybe paprika. No, not even that.
Fresh herbs? I'd say, trivial. Unless they are rotten with Florida mildew. 10 hrs of smoke dominates (plus salt, sweet, sour) all other manipulations of a hunk of flesh.
It's true. But, nobody will believe it. Heat and smoke will clobber most things you put on a big roast for a long, slow smoke.
But, I am but a humble person. Who has just done another perfect set of game hens in 90 mins. Good chow.
What do you think?
acarriii
Save your fresh herbs for your vegetables and faster cooked meats... No real difference.
In fact there has been very good discussion about whether one rub is really any better than another... more impact on chicken and ribs due to faster cook times... the long cooks simply don't make much difference... just make sure there is salt and pepper....
In fact there has been very good discussion about whether one rub is really any better than another... more impact on chicken and ribs due to faster cook times... the long cooks simply don't make much difference... just make sure there is salt and pepper....
quote:Originally posted by Tom:
[qb]do fresh herbs and spices make a difference on long cooks i.e.,Q[/qb]
Most fresh herbs are best used raw or added to a cooked dish at the last second...they're just too delicate to stand high heat and/or extended cooking times. That being said, I will use fresh rosemary, thyme or laurel (bay) when preparing certain soups, sauces or braised (stewed) dishes, as those herbs are a bit more sturdy.
When it comes to Q, spices are a matter of personal taste. IMHO, rubs, mops and marinades do impart more flavor, though in this case we're generally speaking of dried spices.
Most rubs include salt, pepper, paprika and sugar...ingredients which will stand up to 10+ hours of smoking. The finished product will not reveal the individual flavors of the rub ingredients, but combined they add complexity.
As catergreat said, save the fresh herbs for other uses.
Thanks,guys.....That squares with my humble opinion, as I sometimes see making the simplicity of Q much too complicated.....I still love the freshest in most other applications,as you do. 
Ok Guys, you've listened to the best. Now the Lazy Man is gonna lay some simple thoughts on ya...
With all due defference to classically trained chefs..ya doesn't hafta be one to know what something tastes like. I never could hit a baseball, but could easily recognize that Musial deservedly belonged in the Hall Of Fame.
Can't taste the stuff on long cooks?
Awwwww............ bull.
Try a test with fresh vs supermarket Allspice. Better still, dump in a tsp of fresh ground clove vs a half tsp or vs a tsp of some stale jarred stuff. Pop in some fresh ground cumin vs some supermarket stuff.
Then, go ahead, smoke the bejezzus out of the meat. Cook it till the pigs eat your little sister. You'll taste a big difference between fresh and supermarket with long cooks. In the case of the cloves or allspice, you might not even be willing to eat it.
I don't grind fresh spice because I'm lazy. Were I entering a competition (of which I have no inclination to do), I'd use nothing but fresh spice. It's better. You can easily taste the differences. Period.
Now, back to your regular scheduled threads about TechnoQue.
Double Lazy
With all due defference to classically trained chefs..ya doesn't hafta be one to know what something tastes like. I never could hit a baseball, but could easily recognize that Musial deservedly belonged in the Hall Of Fame.
Can't taste the stuff on long cooks?
Awwwww............ bull.
Try a test with fresh vs supermarket Allspice. Better still, dump in a tsp of fresh ground clove vs a half tsp or vs a tsp of some stale jarred stuff. Pop in some fresh ground cumin vs some supermarket stuff.
Then, go ahead, smoke the bejezzus out of the meat. Cook it till the pigs eat your little sister. You'll taste a big difference between fresh and supermarket with long cooks. In the case of the cloves or allspice, you might not even be willing to eat it.
I don't grind fresh spice because I'm lazy. Were I entering a competition (of which I have no inclination to do), I'd use nothing but fresh spice. It's better. You can easily taste the differences. Period.
Now, back to your regular scheduled threads about TechnoQue.
Double Lazy
Hey, Y'all!
I am flabbergasted . . . I am aghast! I agree with Double Lazy!!!
However, the differences, while noticeable and real, are subtle. Otherwise I think that there would only be a salt/sugar/pepper rub followed by a salt/sugar/pepper/vinegar sauce. I think also that the smoke flavor is very masking and tends to supress the subtleties even further. I find that after tasting a number of sauces, back to back, that I have difficulty telling them apart and then have to rely on "i don't know why, but I like this one best". . . and add in a smoked meat carrier for that sauce, and it gets confusing faster.
Double Lazy you remind me of my Grandfather . . . a lovely old man directly from the old sod of Erin. He used to start family arguments, sit back and watch the row develop and then switch sides of the argument just to see the mental and verbal fireworks shoot higher! Since he passed, I have assumed the mantel of family devil's advocate . . . but I'll never be able to do it as well as he did and never with that lovely brogue he had! 
I am flabbergasted . . . I am aghast! I agree with Double Lazy!!!
However, the differences, while noticeable and real, are subtle. Otherwise I think that there would only be a salt/sugar/pepper rub followed by a salt/sugar/pepper/vinegar sauce. I think also that the smoke flavor is very masking and tends to supress the subtleties even further. I find that after tasting a number of sauces, back to back, that I have difficulty telling them apart and then have to rely on "i don't know why, but I like this one best". . . and add in a smoked meat carrier for that sauce, and it gets confusing faster.
Double Lazy you remind me of my Grandfather . . . a lovely old man directly from the old sod of Erin. He used to start family arguments, sit back and watch the row develop and then switch sides of the argument just to see the mental and verbal fireworks shoot higher! Since he passed, I have assumed the mantel of family devil's advocate . . . but I'll never be able to do it as well as he did and never with that lovely brogue he had!
Well, I'll bite my tongue.
But, smoke rules. The rest is piddle.
Except: salt, sour, pepper (chile).
Forget about it.
Are you smoking, or baking? Ask yourself.
acarriii.
But, smoke rules. The rest is piddle.
Except: salt, sour, pepper (chile).
Forget about it.
Are you smoking, or baking? Ask yourself.
acarriii.
I don't know where Double Lazy is getting fresh Allspice and Clove unless he has relatives in Jamaica
He does make a point though...if any of you have an old electric or manual coffee grinder buried away in your kitchen...by all means use it to grind your own spices. Even better, put them in a pan over low heat and toast them a bit before you do it...the heat releases the flavor that much more. Try it with cloves, allspice, cumin and even cinnamon.
...a tip from classically trained...
He does make a point though...if any of you have an old electric or manual coffee grinder buried away in your kitchen...by all means use it to grind your own spices. Even better, put them in a pan over low heat and toast them a bit before you do it...the heat releases the flavor that much more. Try it with cloves, allspice, cumin and even cinnamon.
...a tip from classically trained...
Okay, I've bit my tongue long enough....
Our first knock down -- drag out -- nobody wins argument (were you watching Detroit play baseball last night or something for ideas, they don't know Q)
....This topic is actually pretty frequently asked in Q circles and has for years. You know what I say....Do what works for you.
There is something different about smoking than classic cooking, don't know why, don't know how and really probably don't care, but I have tried N-U-M-E-R-O-U-S experiments and judged many, many events as a certified judge and I can guarantee (like I do in the Coca-Cola tests) I'll tell the ones cooked with a complex blend of spices over a simple smoke any time, and it's not just the reminents of the herbs/spices that can hold up to temp.
Don't get me wrong guys, I agree with all the comments that you've said about traditional cooking, but this is not that. I know the "oven" is at 225 or there abouts, but there's is something different (call it Q magic).
We'll here's what your Moderator suggests. The salt and pepper gang vs the rub gang, next year, Houston, be there ya wimps and we'll see who wins! LOL (by the way -- I'm the judge
and let's not discuss what some chefs (not our Forum chef by the way) say about ribs...first you par-boil them. Nope not picking on chefs, just classical cooking mixing with Smoking -- some of it works and some of it doesn't. No offense TC (who makes a good rib rub by the way).
Love this long posts don't you Tom!
Q On.
Smokin'Okie
To DL..thanks
For the Benefit of the General Cookshack nation, I'm going to move this over to the General Section where Tom started
Our first knock down -- drag out -- nobody wins argument (were you watching Detroit play baseball last night or something for ideas, they don't know Q)
....This topic is actually pretty frequently asked in Q circles and has for years. You know what I say....Do what works for you.
There is something different about smoking than classic cooking, don't know why, don't know how and really probably don't care, but I have tried N-U-M-E-R-O-U-S experiments and judged many, many events as a certified judge and I can guarantee (like I do in the Coca-Cola tests) I'll tell the ones cooked with a complex blend of spices over a simple smoke any time, and it's not just the reminents of the herbs/spices that can hold up to temp.
Don't get me wrong guys, I agree with all the comments that you've said about traditional cooking, but this is not that. I know the "oven" is at 225 or there abouts, but there's is something different (call it Q magic).
We'll here's what your Moderator suggests. The salt and pepper gang vs the rub gang, next year, Houston, be there ya wimps and we'll see who wins! LOL (by the way -- I'm the judge
and let's not discuss what some chefs (not our Forum chef by the way) say about ribs...first you par-boil them. Nope not picking on chefs, just classical cooking mixing with Smoking -- some of it works and some of it doesn't. No offense TC (who makes a good rib rub by the way).
Love this long posts don't you Tom!
Q On.
Smokin'Okie
To DL..thanks
For the Benefit of the General Cookshack nation, I'm going to move this over to the General Section where Tom started