Changing My Vote on Garnish

Are you serious?

I sure am. As a horticulturist and garden designer(day jobs), I know of countles forms of green leaf lettuce, but all I've ever heard from reps and others was that only "green leaf lettuce" is acceptable garnish. They never said green leaved lettuce. There is a huge difference. I looked at the wording in the 2005 handbook and it became pretty clear that all lettuce that had green leaves was legal, but I guarantee some I could come up with that would be legal by the wording, would get you a DQ.

Troy

I'm serious! Shocked by the new definition. Also, allowing custom cut ribs with part of the loin. I was told last year I would be DQed if I used them. Are the rules going to be set by the reps?

fred,
i saw that post.
romaine is now considered green leaf lettuce.
and the rib thing was a hoot!!!!
jack
ps. i will not say a thing about fba and reopen that one lol

oh fred what the heck i just got to!!!!
just what does the kcbs have against red oak leaf lettuce?????
or frisee' for that matter??
just kidding!!!!
jack
ps i am against lining the bottom of the box with aluminum foil also lol

You're right Jack. Why not just any kind of foliage? Next they will decide rose petals are ok as long as they are green. we need for Troy to do a Lettuce 101 post.

To answer Freds question : The reps interpitation of the rules is what you go by at the contest. This is why the cooks meeting is very important. If you think the rep doesn't understand the rules you need to have them explain what the think up front before the scoring begins. There has been reps fired for how far they go with special cut ribs and garnish. I won't mention names here but you don't see them around anymore neither. The power of being an official sometimes goes to folks heads!

Fred
A new judge that can't understand "leaves of green lettuce" and as a new judge was looking for DQs, you want to change rules based on the observations of that new judge is an over reaction in my opinion.
Romain, iceburg and green leaf lettuce have always been legal.

The real question is why a new judge would be looking for DQs and if he really feels the rules are BS why is he judging. I would never ask him back to judge based on how he feel on something that knows very little about.

We are asking a judge to make 72 desicions in 2 hours, make that 73, he has to decide to come and judge. He is asked to judge within the guidlines as they are set up, if he feels they are BS then don't judge.
Jim

I guess the thing to do is to follow the advice a wise man named Eddy gave me. "Stay in the middle of the road." In this case, strange garnishes or meat cuts will probably do more harm than good. I was naive to believe that KCBS rules were well establish over time and not subject a great deal of interputation. I was a bit suprised how much leeway the reps appearently have with rules interputation. One of the cornerstones of fair competition is clear rules that are understood by all.

We go to judging school next month. One of the thing I will be doing is keeping notes on the reps for when I cook one of their contests.

How is the wording on the audio CD regarding garnish? Is it verbatim by the rule? I've only heard reps say "Greenleaf lettuce" which is actually labeled as such in the grocer store, but actually a cultivar of the looseleaf or loose lettuce family.

It wasn't confusing when I thought the reps were only suggesting that "Greenleaf" and "iceberg" were the only types of legal lettuce. But by its definition we currently have all kinds of possibilities, horticulturally speaking.

I'm not trying to make this confusing, just pointing out the many varibles that are possbile using garnish that haven't been addressed before.

The contest that I am helping organize is hosting a judging school this weekend here in Birmingham. It'll be interesting to see what is actually taught.

Jim,
the answer is to rewrite the rule and state what is legal instead of a nebulus term and a list of what is illegal. That way everyone knows and no one gets DQed. Rules clear enough that even us newbies can understand.

How do you address the question about the amount of loin meat left on the ribs?

Fred
The reason for the the CDs now is so it is not left up to a Rep to have to relay that information and everyone gets the same info.
As a judge trainer I state clearly that it is Leaves of Green Lettuce and go on to tell the class which types of lettuce that is. I know that there are instructors that do not cover the subject that well, I took a class from one but I also have been cooking long enought to know my options.
A Back rib that has a large amount of loin left attached is not illegal, everyone has the right to cook them if they wish, I don't find that to be a problem.

BBQ is an idividual thing and there are many styles, in KCBS we say you have the right to express that in your cooking and give you the tools to do that within the rules. I personely would hate to see those choices taken away. Let me say that most of these out of the norm cuts don't do well enought to keep using them.
Jim

Jim,
I don't have a problem with any rule, but legal should be the same at all KCBS contests. When I get DQed for my 'extra loin on ribs' I'm going to refer them to you. When I play a game, I don't care what the rules are, but I want to know the rules. Saying I've cooked long enough to know the rules is like saying start playing and you'll learn the rules of poker. When you are on the Board, read the rules from the eyes of a newbie.

I agree with Fast Eddy. I pay as close attention as I can at the cooks meeting. I didn't understand what sculpting meant. I raised my hand and asked. That could mean cutting off a piece of gristle or something to me. Don't be afraid to ask at the meeting. They asked for questions and that's an invitation as far as I'm concerned.
But is there someone you can ask questions of before you pack for the contests? It might help someone decide how to prepare.
Peggy

Jim,

While training judges, what types of lettuce do you tell the class "Leaves of Green Lettuce" are?

thanks,
Troy

"Leaves of Green Lettuce"
What is the difference between leaves and leafs?? Sounds like the same thing to me.

"Greenleaf lettuce" is a specific cultivar of the family of "Looseleaf or Loose Lettuce". Leaves of green lettuce is any number of lettuces that have green leaves.

kewl!!!!!!
so it take it that frisee' and "spring mix" is allowed!!!!!!!!
jack

Well, the way I read it.......yes, as long as there is not kale, red leaf lettuce, or other non green lettuces.

I'm really amazed that this has not surfaced before now. I can't find the 2004 rules any where, so I don't know the exact wording prior to the 2005 rules. It might have been the same. I can't remember exactly what the CD played at the cooks meeting stated.

2004 Rules
http://www.bbqdan.com/kcbs/rules_judges.html

Wow, that was quick, thanks

I for one know I heard "greenleaf lettuce" and not "green lettuce" last year at several events. This may have been the wording since.........forever

It's still quite interesting to me what actually could be used that would be by the book legal, but would probably get you a DQ by a contest rep that couldn't identify the particular type of green lettuce.

Are we bored or what?

Grits boy
I tell them romain, iceburg, green leaf and bib lettuce are all legal. As a cooking instructor I would suggest they use green leaf.

Fred
I can't speak for every Rep but based on what I know and if I was there I would not allow you to be DQ'd for those ribs, a good rep team would discuss to make the decision.

Something about marking, there is almost no such thing.
Jim

gritsboy
at plant city they were very specific. the term used was "green leaf lettuce". we still have that in our competition notebook.
they went so far as to say the same thing you posted no kale red lettuce ect.
bored? no way!!!
but just what does lettuce have to do with q is still what i am pondering so even though most people know my feelings on this i am still following this thread out of professional curiosity as i am finding the similarities between ACF and KCBS to be very much alike
jack

Up in Seattle last year, the team I was cooking next to was DQ on their first two entries because they garnished with mustard greens. What was sad was they purchased it at the organic food grocery store that was sponsoring the cookoff. The produce manager actually handed them the greens, mistaking them for green leaf lettuce. Understandably, the contest rep did not make any exceptions, although I expressed my vote that it was ok to allow the mistake, if other teams would approve. Obviously, it made for a lousy day for them.

Thanks for your comments Jim.

Prisonchef, right now the lettuce has taken on more importance than ever in the KCBS if you want to win. I know it wasn't the intention when garnish was installed as an "option", but as long as it is an "option" I don't think you'll win anything without it.

I was just kidding about the boredom. As much as i am against allowing garnish in the KCBS, i am always curious as to why cooks who like it think it makes the competitive bbq experience better. There so much importance placed on it at the judging table regardeless of what the judges are instructed to do with a box without it.

Big Daddy, by definition the mustard greens are not considered a lettuce type, althoug they are used is salads. I think it's rediculous though that they got a DQ over it. I don't think that the spirit of that rule was applied correctly.

Troy

Well, mustard isn't lettuce, it's in the cabbage family. I think we need to get back to meat! There are so many different types of lettuce. But I can't understand the concentration on green stuff when you are trying to produce an excellent meat product. Just allow any kind of garnishing if garnishing is the big deal!
Peggy

Peggy,

That's my whole point.

Toss The Lettuce!

wait gritsboy!!!!
no fair!!!!!!
i just got a case of frisee'
just kidding
jack

I thought the idea of not allowing different types of garnish, is to prevent letting the judges know the identity of a particular contestant.

I've always thought that limiting the garnish was meant to neutralize its impact. If you allow any kind of garnish, you could get some teams with an expert food stylist to blow away the competition. The basic skill of using garnish, while better for some than others, is not a big differentiation, in my mind.

However, having said that, I plan on using NO garmish at a cookoff this weekend to see how the judges respond. It is not a qualifier, so not much is on the line--except I like to win money to pay the BBQ habit bills.