Does Smoking and Nitrites/Nitrates lead to an increased Cancer Risk?

Michael,
Check this out:
Nitrite in Meat

The section titled "toxicity" may answer your question.

Thank you very much it is a great article and I learned a lot from it but the revision date is 1992 I wonder if there has been any other work done in this area that would modify the findings.

I checked the other nitrite related sites in my favorites list but I couldn't find any recent info. You may want to poke around this site:
Food Safety

Personally, I don't think the residual nitrites found in smoked meats poses any health risks. Based on everything I've read, we consume more nitrites/nitrates from vegies, water, etc. than from smoked meats. This assumes the meat has been cured properly and the correct amounts of nitrates/nitrites have been used.

If I stumble onto any good articles I'll throw them your way.

Cheers

Michael, I'm moving this out of the recipe section and into the Open Forum for this kind of discussion.

Smokin'

I contacted Morton Salt (the manufactures of Tender Quick) through their web page (mortonsalt.com) and asked the following question:

"The use and benefits of Nitrites and Nitrates in smoking especially cold smoking are indisputable. They both improve the taste and cut down on
food poisoning. I use Morton's Tender Quick. Now in the popular press
their have been stories linking the use of Nitrites and Nitrates in smoked foods with increased cancer risk. I do not have the technical background to understand if these articles are just another case of fear mongering in the popular press or it there is some validity to these claims.

Help what is the truth in this?"

____________________________________________

Morton Salt�s reply was:

____________________________________________

Our tech people advise:

"In the past, there were concerns that nitrates and nitrites could form compounds that caused cancer in lab animals. However, here have been no known cases of human cancer that have been traced to the use of these compounds. Researchers now believe that exposure to nitrate or nitrite in cured meats or other foods do not cause cancer in humans either directly or indirectly.

Nitrates and nitrites have several important functions in processed meats. They provide a characteristic flavor and color. They prevent the development of rancidity. They also act as antimicrobial agents, preventing the growth of botulism in meat products. There is no substance that has been found as a replacement for these compounds in curing meat."

We hope this information is helpful to you.

Sincerely,

MORTON SALT
Consumer Affairs
____________________________________________

I would love to ask the same question from the makers of Instacure but am unable to locate the web page of it�s manufacturer if anyone has this information I would love to see what they have to say about this issue.

Does any body Know where I could buy Tender Quick on line? I can't find it around here.

Send an e-mail to Morton's Salt (mortonsault.com) and I am sure they will find you a local supplier.

Sorry send the question to 'saltinfo@morton.com'

For some time now, I've not been using Instacure nor other curing salts because I place my brine in a cold refrigerator and stay out of the Danger Zone. My older posts and older brines had that in them as a food safety reason more than a taste reason.

I get mine a Wal-Mart, in the grocery/salt section.

The key benefit of these cures is to help with any issues should you get into that area.

If you're good with food safety, you may not need to.

That being said, there are times when it's the right thing to do, especially if you're trying to cure.

Smokin'

Ricky, you can buy TenderQuik from http://www.americanspice.com
Right now they have a 10% sale going on. I think the promotional code is augtemp, but I'm not sure.
They have quite an assortment of spices including a large selection of bbq rubs, sauces, etc. Good luck

You can also get it from Joe Ames's The Ingredient Store, or from Eldon's.

Thanks.One question If say I use Tenderbox and it has salt in it do I adjust the salt in the brine?

Not unless you don't like the taste of salt. Tenderquick is used in such small amounts, it doesn't appear to "taste" more salty.

Smokin'

I've been reading this thread about nitrates/nitites with interest. I am a chiropractor and I treat patients who have nitrite/nitrate sensitivities. The most common reaction is headache and pain somewhere in the body. These patients don't know that their symptoms are being caused by this chemical. Unfortunately nitrates are very common in the processed foods that make up most of the US food supply.

The only way for these patients to get relief to to permanently remove these substances from their diet. I also know from first hand experience because I also have this sensitivity.

Rob

Hi Rob,

You may find this research interesting..
"Sources of Sodium Nitrite
More than 85 percent of a person's daily intake of nitrite comes from nitrate in green, leafy vegetables or root vegetables, such as lettuce, spinach and carrots, and some drinking water. At most, about 5 percent of a person's daily intake comes from cured meats. "

Click on the below URL for the articlr.. http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article...80XEN0IC&sub_cat=380

FYI

Joe Ames

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the info. Here is some info on nitrates with references:

Problem: Nitrate Toxicity
Once ingested into the human body, nitrates can be converted into compounds called nitrosamines, which are known carcinogens. In addition, nitrates can be chemically reduced in the bodies of human infants to nitrites, which reduces the oxygen-carrying capacity of hemoglobin. Nitrate concentrations in drinking water in the United States are limited to 10 parts per million primarily to prevent infant blood problems (Schrama, 1998). While municipal drinking water treatment plants chemically remove nitrate, rural drinking water wells near agricultural operations are likely to have elevated nitrate levels (USGS, 2001b; O'Toole, 1998).

Check this link: http://www.kidseatgreat.com/nitrates.html

High levels of nitrates cause "blue baby syndrome," a condition caused by lack of oxygen in the blood. Because infants have less hemoglobin, they are at risk for side effects from nitrates. Nitrates are banned from baby foods because of this recognized toxicity. Other symptoms of nitrate toxicity can include difficulty breathing, dizziness, headaches, nausea, and vomiting. Some European countries have banned nitrates from their food supply.

There is plenty of info on the web about health problems caused by nitrates in the diet. Check it out and decide for yourself.

I personally prefer to err on the side of caution.

Rob

Hi Rob,

You're right about an abundance of factoids on the Web.
I suppose it comes down to whose expert testimony you chose to go along with.
Personally, I consider many of the food phobias such as the "MSG syndrome", either mass hysteria or a grab for attention.

Just my 2

:-)

Joe

Hi Joe,

You might want to check out the book "Excitotoxins" By Russell Blaylock MD.

It is a carefully researched and documented study of the effect of glutamates (MSG) on the human body especially the nervous system. He associates MSG with most autoimmune problems such as parkinsons, MS, and those types of neurological problems where MSG destroys the nervous system.

On a personal level I also suffered from the Chinese MSG syndrome as a kid, long before there was "mass hysteria" about it. I always got sick from chinese food. When I got older I found out about the MSG reaction and ordered chinese food without the MSG and I found that I could eat it without a reaction. Not every person has this reaction, but it is common.

Rob

Rob,

The puzzling thing is that many foods we commonly consume are "loaded" with naturally occuring MSG.
Wheat, tomatoes, mushrooms, hard cheeses, to name a few. I haven't heard of anyone having an adverse reaction from pizza. ;-)

Anecdotal (sp) evidence is plentiful, however I don't think there is any "hard research" connecting MSG with the syndrome.
People certainly may have reactions, but the causes are still a mystery.

Joe

Oooops... I forgot to mention soy sauce, ;-)

Joe

As far as "factoids" on the Web are concerned, an awful lot of them are really "opinionoids" presented as fact. This is especially true of sites where some group or individual is pushing their own agenda.

If we eat nothing but smoked cured meats, nitrates/nitrites are not going to be the greatest risk to our health. I think that "moderation in all things" is a good rule to live by. Don't limit your diet to any one item or group of items. And a paranoid avoidance of anything that some "expert" has determined is bad for you is going to so limit what you eat that the phrase 'why bother?' comes to mind

So . . . sit back and have an beer! Life's too short!

Now if you want some serious angst..
Think about these for starters.
Radioactive fallout that has a half-life of just about eons, and continues to circle the Earth.
Developing a resistance to antibiotics from overuse. As well as their re-circulating in our aquifer.
Polluted coastal waterways, with God knows what.

Joe

Hi Joe,

As far as I know wheat and tomatoes have no MSG unless it was added by processing. Do you have the references for that statement? I'd like to check it out.

There may be some amounts of free glutamate in some foods, but it is very small. The problem is when processing adds to our food supply and the human body becomes overloaded.

Here is an excellent link that has references.
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/

Rob

Eat only the "right" things . . .

Exercise regularly . . .

Never smoke . . .

Never drink . . .

Live a life of denial and sacrifice . . .

Die Anyway!!

I thought this was a Barbecue forum Anybody out there adding MSG to their ribs?

Rob,

Do a google search for glutamic acid.

Here's a site for starters. http://www.healthwell.com/healthnotes/Supp/Glutamic_Acid.cfm

Joe

Rob,

For your readinf pleasure. :-)
http://www.msgfacts.com/lookatfacts.html
http://allergies.about.com/library/blificmsgmyth9.htm
http://www.familyhaven.com/health/ir-msg.html
http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1994/0294CS.html


Joe

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the links. There is a lot of erroneous info in those links. I suspect that they are sponsored by the glutatmate industry. Here are some facts that may help clear this up.

When consumers refer to MSG they are referring to PROCESSED FREE GLUTAMIC ACID. If glutamic acid hasn't been processed, it doesn't cause adverse reactions.

MSG is MANUFACTURED.

MSG is NOT FOUND NATURALLY IN FOOD or in the human body. MSG is NOT IDENTICAL TO FREE GLUTAMIC ACID THAT HAS NOT BEEN MANUFACTURED. The glutamic acid found naturally in human beings and other higher organisms (before food fed to plants, animals, and humans became loaded with MSG) is L-glutamic acid, only.

MSG enters the body through the mouth, through the nose, through the skin, and through the placental barrier.

MSG can enter the brain through the blood brain barrier, which is incomplete through childhood, never intact in certain regions of the hypothalamus, and is easily damaged by things like a blow to the head, high fever, seizures, stroke, and the normal process of aging.

MSG is potentially toxic to everyone.

MSG can cross the placental barrier.

MSG is most toxic to the unborn, to infants, to children, and to the elderly.

MSG is found in medications - including vaccines.

MSG is found in infant formula - with the greatest amounts found in hypoallergenic formula.

MSG is found in liquid supplements given to the elderly.

MSG is being used as fertilizer and is being sprayed on crops as they grow. MSG is HIDDEN IN AND ON UNPROCESSED PRODUCE that has been treated with plant "growth enhancers," fertilizers, pesticides, and fungicides that contain MSG.

MSG is being used in waxes applied to raw fruits and vegetables.

MSG is hidden in PROCESSED food in ingredients that give no clue to the fact that they contain MSG.

The glutamate-industry-sponsored research that claims to "prove" that MSG is safe is flawed to the point of being fraudulent. One of their tricks (and there are many) is to use MSG in placebos.

By law, the burden of proof that any food ingredient is safe lies with the manufacturer. But the glutamate-industry-sponsored research that CLAIMS to "prove" that MSG is safe is flawed to the point of being fraudulent. One of their tricks (and there are many) is to use MSG in placebos.


Some one asked if our rubs have MSG. They probably do if they are not home made with organic spices.

Rob

quote:

MSG can enter the brain through the blood brain barrier, which is incomplete through childhood, never intact in certain regions of the hypothalamus, and is easily damaged by things like a blow to the head, high fever, seizures, stroke, and the normal process of aging.

Pseudo-science and opinion as fact . . . it drives me nuts. At no time in post-natal life (after birth) is the blood brain barrier "incomplete" or other than intact with the possible exception of trauma, hemorrhage or invasive infection and rupture. The blood brain barrier refers to the physical separation of the circulating blood and the tissue of the brain itself. And circulating blood is normally always inside the blood vessels. And passing through the blood brain barrier is not, in itself, a bad thing . . . without that passage, our brains would be starved of such necessities as oxygen and nutrients. Some of the things that are mentioned (fever, infection, etc.) do alter the permeability of the barrier, sometimes increasing it and sometimes decreasing it, sometimes beneficially, sometimes not.

As to the apparent health benefits of "naturally occuring substances" over "manufactured substances," remember that Botulinum toxin is a naturally occuring and unprocessed substance that will kill you completely dead, completely naturally. And a completely manufactured genetically engineered substance like Humulin (human insulin produced by genetically altered E. Coli bacteria) can save your life under certain circumstances.

I am not saying that some folks do not experience adverse effects after consuming MSG, clearly some do . . . but if the substance is as all pervasive and thoroughly toxic to the old, the young, the infirm, the halt and the lame, how do you reconcile that countries that utilize the most processed foods have the world's lowest infant mortality rates and the longest lived populations?

I don't think that any reasonable person can deny that most lives in the "developed" world are longer and healthier today than they were as recently as 50 or 100 years ago. Likewise I think we all miss some of the simplicity of times gone by. But if living "naturally" means dying at 47 (the average life span of a male in the US in 1900) like many of our grand fathers and great grand fathers did, I'll take my MSG and carry on, thank you.

QUOTE:how do you reconcile that countries that utilize the most processed foods have the world's lowest infant mortality rates and the longest lived populations?


The above statement is clearly incorrect.

The following statistics are from the book
WHERE WE STAND, by Michael Wolff, Peter Rutten, Albert Bayers III, and the World Rank Research Team Comparison to other wealthy countries

Life Expectancy (years):
US is actually 24th in the world compared to all countries
Men Women
Japan 76.2 82.5
France 72.9 81.3
Switzerland 74.1 81.3
Netherlands 73.7 80.5
Sweden 74.2 80.4
Canada 73.4 80.3
Norway 73.1 79.7
Germany 72.6 79.2
Finland 70.7 78.8
United States 71.6 78.6
United Kingdom 72.7 78.2
Denmark 72.2 77.9

Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):

United States 10.4
United Kingdom 9.4
Germany 8.5
Denmark 8.1
Canada 7.9
Norway 7.9
Netherlands 7.8
Switzerland 6.8
Finland 5.9
Sweden 5.9
Japan 5.0

Death rate of 1-to-4 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):

United States 101.5
Japan 92.2
Norway 90.2
Denmark 85.1
France 84.9
United Kingdom 82.2
Canada 82.1
Netherlands 80.3
Germany 77.6
Switzerland 72.5
Sweden 64.7
Finland 53.3

Death rate of 15-to-24 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):

United States 203
Switzerland 175
Canada 161
France 156
Finland 154
Norway 128
Germany 122
Denmark 120
United Kingdom 114
Sweden 109
Japan 96
Netherlands 90

The US does not do very well when compared against the rest of the world even though we spend the most as a percentage of GDP. I believe that the main reason for this is a food supply laced with chemicals, sugar and junk and processed foods. The US is number one in consumption of processed foods.

Something to think about.

Rob,

Gee, there's no foolin' you...
What are some of the other foods we should avoid?
What are your thoughts about residual herbicides, pesticides in the foods we eat?
Or how 'bout antibiotics and growth hormones that are in our meat supply?


Are irradiated foods safe to eat?
What about aluminum cooking pots and pans?
Does aspartame really destroy brain cells?
Is flouride in municipal water supply's OK?

Joe

Rob is clearly correct and I, for one, plan on moving to a country with a safe MSG free food supply like Zaire or Somalia.

By the way, I never said that the US had the best statistics, just that developed countries with significantly processed food supplies, on the whole, had much better statistics than undeveloped countries and that the statistics had gotten better for those countries over the last century. A point that I believe Rob supported with his lists (not a single country on the list cited by Rob would qualify as "undeveloped" or Third World). I didn't see Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Cambodia or any of the other by and large rat hole countries with nearly completely unprocessed food supplies mentioned anywhere on the lists. And who can argue with statistics?

Now, can we get back to talking about what is admittedly not a health food . . . barbecue?

Mardoc- Before you move to Somalia, I suggest you check with Stuart to make sure you can get service for your smoker.


The reason that the countries you mentioned have such a high mortality rate is that they have inadequate food and little or no medical care. The people are usually in a state of starvation and the hygeiene and sanitation is non-existant. They usually don't have enough water and what water they have is contaminated and unfit to drink. So it is important to compare like countries.

The following quote is from the World Health organization: http://www.who.int/health-systems-performance/docs/articles/lancet_mathers.pdf

The United States rated 24th under this system, or an average of 70.0 years of healthy life for babies born in 1999. The WHO also breaks down life expectancy by sex for each country. Under this system, U.S. female babies could expect 72.6 years of healthy life, versus just 67.5 years for male babies.

"The position of the United States is one of the major surprises of the new rating system," says Christopher Murray, M.D., Ph.D., Director of WHO's Global Programme on Evidence for Health Policy. "Basically, you die earlier and spend more time disabled if you�re an American rather than a member of most other advanced countries."

Yes Mardoc we all die. The real issue is the quality of life that we have. I want to live a full life up to the minute I die. I don't want to be disabled with heart disease or cancer, alzheimers, diabetes, etc. Having been in practice over 20 years I see people in their early 50's with alzheimers. Heart attacks for men in their 30's. Diabetes has increased 40% in the last 10 years. Now teens have it. I never saw this 20 years ago. There is an epidemic of obesity even though we eat less fat, beef and eggs and animal products and more chicken and vegetable oils. Something is wrong here and I think one of the major reasons is the food supply.

Joe- I suggest that you check out www.westonaprice.org. It is an excellent site with many links. Get the book by Blaylock that I posted early. Glutamates do kill brain cells. There are two excellent books on the web site http://www.newtrendspublishing.com/

Nourishing traditions by Sally Fallon and The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD. I suggest you read them. They are an excellent source of information.

I also believe that BBQ is a very healthy as well as a tasty way to nourish ourselves. BBQ has been around for thousands of years. As long as good quality ingredients are used, it is a safe and healthy way of eating.

I think that there is a lot of passion and knowledge about food especially BBQ on this site. That's great because I love food and BBQ. I am glad that this is here for the exchange of information and thought.

Rob

Just remember the old adage about cold beer and barbecue.

"you tend to see a lot more ol' Q cooker's than you see old doctors and dieticians."

Rob,

As an ol' blues singer, Muddy Waters, once sang..
"I love the life I live, and I live the life I love.".

I'm 66, smoke 1 1/2 packs of king-sized cigarettes daily, drink 2 quarts of high test coffee. I just put 2 full ten hour days in preparing assorted foods for an up-coming ethnic festival.
I get quarterly physical checkups and I'm in pretty good shape for an old guy. :-)

As for this exchange... another quote
"To each his own".

:-)

Joe

I love people who love statistics. Read the whole article, Rob. There are numerous references to the inability of the researchers to have access to complete and accurate records in the WHO study that you cited. The author also says that some of the statistics are skewed by reporting, by example India where almost no one reported disability as they aged versus the US where almost everyone did. I've been to India . . . if India's native population is free of disability, they have gone to extraordinary lengths to import vast numbers of folks with obvious deformity and disability.

And by the way, the raw death statistics that you quoted for 1-4 year olds and 15-20 year olds include death from all causes. In the US the leading cause of death for children over the age of 1 is accident, with auto accident being the most prevalent after the age of 4, a proportion which increases as the child reaches adolescence. I am unsure of how processed foods figure in there.

I more than agree with you that survival and longevity are complicated and multi-factorial, something that you would be hard pressed to glean from the other two sites that you put forward. But this all brings me back to my basic premise. Moderation is the key. And beware the single issue protagonist who is pushing a theory outside the mainstream. There are an awful lot of folks with copper bracelets, magnetic shoe insoles and "harmonic vibrators" who still have arthritis. Now, after eating a cup of brown rice for breakfast, I'm going to go get my coffee grounds enema, put on my crystal necklace and sit in my pyramid while I eat my organically grown beef brisket sandwich for lunch . . . I haven't figured out what I can eat for dinner yet!

Mardoc,

Remember you started the whole statistics issue by claiming that countries that had the lowest mortality rates had the highest processed food rate. That stats showed just the opposite.

I also find it appalling that so many children die per 200,000 compared to other advanced nations. Yes mortality rates are for all causes. Does that make it more palatable? It seems to me that the US is not taking good care of it's children compared to other nations. No amount of rationializing can change that fact. And the US still has the highest mortality and infant mortality of those advanced countries.

I believe it is important to look at theories outside the mainstream. Growth cannot occur unless established beliefs are questioned. Semmelwiess first proposed that Dr's should wash their hands and use clean equipment before delivering babies. There was an astounding infant mortality rate during his era. He was driven insane and bankrupt do to the unrelenting abuse he took from the medical profession for proposing this heresy. Today using anything other that proper hygeine is unthinkable.

Good luck with your new health regimen. Sounds a little extreme to me.

Rob

And now...back to our Smokin' discussion

Well, Smokin', this'll be closer:

Please, forumers, especially Joe & others with sausage experience, comment on the truth of this statement:

"The US government requires meat packers to add ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to meats with nitrates." (http://www.kidseatgreat.com/nitrates.html)

Maybe home sausage/cured meat makers should do this too? Maybe not?

One more thought: Ricky asked if using Tenderquick in brines will make them saltier and I don't think anyone mentioned just substituting the appropriate quantity of Tenderquick for an equal quantity of salt in the recipe. Since Tenderquick is more or less all salt, this keeps pretty much the same saltiness. Or, the recipes on the Tenderquick box use it with no extra salt - supposedly it's premixed to the right proportion of nitrate and nitrite. The sugar-cure Tenderquick is a different story, though. It's got a pretty high proportion of sugar.

By the time we quit palaverin' that poor varmit,it'll be jerky in it's own right.

Ain't there somethin' about "beatin a dead horse" and cookin'Q.

Just my $0.02 worth,Donna.