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this all gets back to the 'place of origin' issue.

for example, is champagne made outside of that area of france just sparkling wine??

(fwiw, in the states, we bottle the grape varietal, in france, they bottle the land...)

or berkshire pork, if the breed is grown outside of it's origin area, is it still berkshire pork??

as far as i'm concerned, it's all about marketing...
quote:
Originally posted by lcubed:
...

for example, is champagne made outside of that area of france just sparkling wine??
..


You may not have real all of both articles, but it discusses that.

The difference here is US people aren't calling and marketing it as Champagne, but the beef people ARE marketing it as Wagyu/Kobe.

I've never held with this being superior beef.

For me, good US Prime is awesome, but it needs to be the good stuff.
Smokin',
If I read the article right, and not to be argumentative, but how does one who claims to have eaten Kobe know it was the real deal? Obviously, it is possible your meal was eaten in the the promised lands itself, where Kobe beef has traditionally been raised. I should think this article would have people everywhere confused. In fact, this article seems to elevate Kobe to the status of myth. It might be the best food nobody ever ate, for if Kobe distribution is so rare, how would a person know they didn't eat domestic beef? The article seems to indicate is is worth the money but I don't know if that means it is better than US prime.
Hmmn...inquiring minds want to know.

For the record, I've never had Kobe or Wyagu. I work for a living, have two kids, a wife and a mortgage. My extravagances are reasonable and for the most part directed towards quality, not location of origin. After all, I bought a Cookshack smoker. Nobody ever accused Oklahoma of being France (or Japan, since we're discussing Kobe/Wyagu) but I can think of several people from Oklahoma I'd rather do BBQ with. I might reconsider if they were to foot the airline costs.
quote:
Originally posted by Grubmeister:
... but how does one who claims to have eaten Kobe know it was the real deal? ...


I think his main point is that in the US you can't get Kobe and Wagyu us a marketing scam.

Is it better? Depends. In Japan, order some and let us know.

For me, it wasn't, it's super rich, almost didn't taste like beef to me.
The one and only time I ate genuine Japanese Kobe as at The French Laundy (Yountville, CA) about 3 years ago. A 2 oz piece of sirloin strip cut from the heart of the center. It was marbled in accordance to the sirloin on the Forbes site. (The waiter brought it out prior to cooking.) There was an upcharge of $100 (in addition to the $240 prix fixe 10 course tasting menu.)

Agree with Smokin...very rich, creamy texture with a hint of beef flavor. Worth the extra $100? Being a chef...had to try the real McCoy...but no, not really.

The term Wagyu doesn't mean a hill of beans to me unless it's graded according to the Japanese system of 1-12. (USDA Prime falls in the 3-4 range)
My dining experience was prior to the hoof & mouth ban. French Laundry chef-owner, Thomas Keller has a restaurant empire stretching from CA to NYC and back again via Vegas. I have to assume that what he said was the "real thing" was the real thing.

As far as the "truth in labeling"...well, we only need to look at C.A.B. circa 1970's vs the Black Angus stamp that appears on everything short of canned peas, to know how that marketing ploy has been mechandised to death.
I think a major part of the problem with this subject is the confusion created by the mistaken interchangeability of the terms “Wagyu” and “Kobe”. As mentioned in the article, the term Wagyu, literally translated, means “Japanese cattle” (Wa=Japanese, Gyu=cattle). Hence, all Kobe are Wagyu, but not all Wagyu are Kobe. The confusion is further compounded in the U.S with the terms “American Wagyu”, “Wagyu Style”, and “Kobe Style”.

The April, 2010 H&M disease ban by the U.S pertains to the importation of all Wagyu, not any specific breed such as Kobe. Prior to the ban, the exportation of Kobe from Japan to any foreign country, including the U.S., was illegal. With the exception of a small shipment to Macao earlier this year it still is considered is illegal to export Kobe from Japan. I don’t know if the same export ban applies to the other distinguished Wagyu breeds such as Mishima, Matsuzaka, or Omi, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it does.

Max – I’ve been to TFL numerous times since it opened in the mid-1990s, as well as its NYC clone, Per Se that opened a decade later. Keller does an exemplary job of full disclosure for most items on the tasting menus and I have never seen the term “Genuine Japanese Kobe” listed. What was a long-time staple offered as a supplement with a $100 additional charge was a dish known as “Calotte de Bœuf Grillée” and, by your description, sounds like the dish you had. If so, that was American Wagyu from Snake River Farms (ID, USA), which is a crossbreed. More recently, that dish has been replaced by a strip loin from Blackmore Farms (VIC, AUS), which is full blooded Wagyu. I’ve never ordered either, but have sampled the former, and it was outstanding.

Personally, I’ve had American Wagyu a number of times in a variety of forms, but I’ve only had the real stuff once at a small business dinner party for 6 a couple years ago in Tokyo where I was the only American. Instead of Kobe, Matsuzaka was served which, as I understand it, many find superior to Kobe. I was told that only the Matsuzaka females are slaughtered for beef, and that a very small percentage of that group are slaughtered before they’re allowed to breed resulting in what is known as “Virgin Beef”. That’s what we were served.

After being seated and served an initial round of drinks the chef and a couple servers appeared with platters to present the raw steaks that are host had individually selected for each of us. At first sight all I could think of was “Where’s the beef?” The marbling had to be around 75%, if not more. The taste and texture of the cooked meat was phenomenal, but so ungodly rich that I had trouble getting through it. I plugged away, however, not wanting to appear rude. It was so different that it’s nearly impossible to describe or compare to American Wagyu, or top quality dry aged USDA prime beef. Not better or worse, just very good and very different. Quite an experience that I doubt will ever happen again.
Last edited by dls
quote:
Originally posted by Pags:
More marbling than shown above? How about a little meat with your fat. I can see why dls may not have liked it much.


I liked it, at least for awhile. It was just a bit a bit over the top for my tastes, especially when considering that prior to the steak dinner we had sushi (21 courses) at what is considered the #1 sushi place in Japan.

It was a very unique evening. I'm eternally grateful that someone else picked up the tab.

I didn't take any pictures but did find one on Google Images that looks identical to the steaks we were served. See the attachment.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • -2147470657
Last edited by dls
I know fat gives the meat flavor, but when I read your post DLS, I could only imagine how rich it must have been and how much it must have melted in your mouth and the feel of it bite after bite. I am guessing it was way too much of a good thing. That meat case looks wonderful. I would love to try anything from it. I need to get my hubby to take a few pics next time he is in Japan. This really blows away any prime we have here.
quote:
Originally posted by Pags:
That's incredible. I might try it just to see but don't think I could eat it. From a health viewpoint.


Yea, it was incredible. My dinner companions kept saying that the fat was good fat to make me healthy and strong, not the bad fat. Either way it was still a lot of fat.
Last edited by dls
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki B:
I know fat gives the meat flavor, but when I read your post DLS, I could only imagine how rich it must have been and how much it must have melted in your mouth and the feel of it bite after bite. I am guessing it was way too much of a good thing. That meat case looks wonderful. I would love to try anything from it. I need to get my hubby to take a few pics next time he is in Japan. This really blows away any prime we have here.


It was very, very rich and flavorful, but kind of overwhelming. Being too much of of a good thing is an understatement. This meal happened about 2 hours after finishing 21 courses of the best sushi I've ever had in my life at an unpretentious little place in the basement of a commercial building in Tokyo attached to the Ginza train station that happens to have 3 Michelin stars.
Last edited by dls
I was on the internet a few months back, and someone was raving about the fat in the beef from their ranch. Good fat like in salmon, omega 3. Can you imagine that? Eating healthy prime rib or rib eye steaks or beef ribs. Maybe that's what your dinner companions were saying although I've never heard that about Kobe beef.

I believe this to be the site. They feed the cattle flax seed which is loaded with omega 3 fatty acids. Flax seed is very healthy and good for the cardiovascular system. The Omega 3 fatty acid is why we eat a lot of salmon, like the smoked salmon we had for dinner again tonight. Imagine if all beef were like this.
Last edited by pags
Pags - I'm certainly no food scientist but, as I understand it, Wagyu beef contains a much higher percentage of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids than Western beef. The monounsaturated (good) fat to saturated (bad) fat ratio is much higher also at around 3:1 versus an acceptable ratio of 1:1 for American beef. Additionally, the monounsaturated fat has a lower melting point and the visible fat essentially disappears in the cooking process.

The place I ate at had an open kitchen and I got a brief chance to watch part of the cooking process. The large blocks of exterior fat were trimmed off and the steaks were placed at one end of a large Teppanyaki type grill over very high heat and seared for around 1 minute per side. They were then moved to the opposite end of the grill with low heat where they were covered with a metal dome and continued to cook for an additional period of time. I don't know how long the low heat process was as I was just passing by and stopped for just a moment to watch. When finished, the steaks were sliced and served rare.
Last edited by dls

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