Hot smoke store bought raw Italian sausage – newbie question

looks like you got it. Deejays recommend cooking between 225-250 to an internal temp of 160.

Depends on how much smoke you want.

Just to cook them,225* will work,and we take ours to about 156*,and they rise to 160* while holding.

I cooked some polish sausage a couple of weeks ago, 225, small chunk of apple wood, to an internal temp of 158. Perfect.

I have a question to add onto this. I am new to the cookshack and new to sausage making. i recently purchased a kit for sausage making from a website that included all the cures, grinder, stuffer etc.

I have read several forums and watched two differnt dvds (so thats the extent of my knowledge)

But now to the question. All over both of the dvd's are warnings about smoking sausage that does not have a cure in it. In other words they say to cook "fresh" sausage in a pan, a grill at higher temps, or poaching it in water. They said if you plan to smoke it at low temps for long periods, you HAVE to use a cure.

So wouldnt store bought sausage NOT have a cure in it, and therefor you could get food poisoning?

Not trying to countermand anyones advice, really just a question?

to restate your concern: is it safe to smoke fresh sausage that has no cure added?

not a sausage expert, but I'd think that as long as you work within the appropriate time frames that it would be safe to smoke fresh retail sausage since it will be thoroughly cooked. In this case you are not cold smoking, but hot smoking to cook.

TN Q
you are right the difference is cold vs hot smoking. Dont cold smoke anything without cure, it will spend to much time in the danger zone.

One of the main things you use cure for, is to prevent the growth of botulism spores. 160 degrees is not high enough to kill them and higher is going to render out your fat, an important part of any sausage. Now, it's not likely that a botulism spore is in your sausage...but it only takes once, right?

Versteroid, TN has the right answer.

Cold vs Hot smoking.

Hot smoking fresh will solve the problem, as it will cook the meat above 160

Cold smoking would be an issue if you ONLY cold smoked, below 140 and never got the sausage above 160 for food safe.

You're reading a lot but try to watch for the reasons and difference between those two methods.

So you mean that I should set my cooker say at 225 and smoke the store bought sausage to 160 inside and then pull it and it will be fine?

As apposed to the batch of beef snak stick I just made yesterday and plan to smoke today.

It tells me to cook at 100 for an hour, then smoke at 125 for 5 hours, then cook at 170 till it reaches an internal temp of 156 then yank it.

I am not even sure a cs will make smoke at 125..guess I will have to see.

quote:

Originally posted by vesteroid:
So you mean that I should set my cooker say at 225 and smoke the store bought sausage to 160 inside and then pull it and it will be fine?

Yes, that's hot smoking. Same result if you cooked raw pork. 160 would be safe.

quote:

As apposed to the batch of beef snak stick I just made yesterday and plan to smoke today. It tells me to cook at 100 for an hour, then smoke at 125 for 5 hours, then cook at 170 till it reaches an internal temp of 156 then yank it. I am not even sure a cs will make smoke at 125..guess I will have to see.

That's cold smoking. They are different methods entirely. The point about the beef snak sticks, did they have a cure in them?

Keep reading and learning the difference so you understand why and how the methods work.

The CS will cold smoke BUT you have to use small wood chunks, pellets or sawdust. Some will add the cold smoke baffle, others a pan of ice. Large chunks need some larger heat to burn. Also, the CS will start out the elements are a higher temp, so it's hard to just throw them in and keep that temp.

I'd suggest a little more reading here about how to make the CS a cold smoker or low heat methods. That's why we made this Sausage forum, to help with reading and asking.

I'm sure you have more questions, just keep askin'

There is a huge pool of expertise here, and I am so happy I have lurked in these forums for so long and benefited from the knowledge. I read the 101's five times before taking a stab at a new meat/cut in my Smokette. The folks here have saved me much frustration, and ruined meats, by sharing their knowledge.

Sausage is where I've decided to share my knowledge, as it's something I've done from scratch and with great success. Now, I'm sharing this with you for free, so value it exactly for what you paid for it.

Botulism spores can survive past the boiling point. You never want to hold a good pork sausage anywhere near that. It will render the fat out, leaving you with a meat that resembles cooked cardboard in texture. You never want to smoke a "fresh" sausage, cold or hot. People do it all the time, there's only about 30 cases of botulism a year in the US (usually from home canning or smoking), so you've got the odds deeply on your side that nothing will happen. Me? I figure just that once will ruin my day (and the next couple of thousands days to follow).

Using cure is the difference between a "fresh" sausage and one fit for smoking. One level teaspoon of Cure #1 for five pounds of meat, is a good rule to follow.

Sausage is a far more wonderful food than most people give it credit. Making your own fresh sausage from scratch, cooking it properly (low medium, caramelize the natural casings, pork sausage just to 155, don't pierce the casing except for temp check) or your own cured sausage, smoking it properly and then letting it "bloom" at room temperature...it's incredible.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

quote:

Originally posted by Chilicat:
...Okay, I'll shut up now.

No you won't.

If you have an expertise, don't hesitate to speak up, that's what the forum is all about, sharing our knowledge. The sausage forum could use a little more traffic, so many you can help the sausage guys

quote:

Originally posted by Chilicat:
Botulism spores can survive past the boiling point. You never want to hold a good pork sausage anywhere near that. It will render the fat out, leaving you with a meat that resembles cooked cardboard in texture. You never want to smoke a "fresh" sausage, cold or hot. People do it all the time, there's only about 30 cases of botulism a year in the US (usually from home canning or smoking), so you've got the odds deeply on your side that nothing will happen. Me? I figure just that once will ruin my day (and the next couple of thousands days to follow).

First of all. Great info. Now the questions:

OK. So I've got a sausage with botulism spores. I'm one of the 30. Are you saying nothing can kill them? Hot smoking or flaming hot grill cause we're never taking the sausage to 212*? Or is there simply a difference between slow and quick cooking? I know a lot of us hot smoke or grill fresh sausage. If this were really a concern, wouldn't the FDA require all sausage to be cured? Please don't tell me it's simply a #'s game.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinOkie:

quote:

Originally posted by Chilicat:
...Okay, I'll shut up now.

No you won't.

If you have an expertise, don't hesitate to speak up, that's what the forum is all about, sharing our knowledge. The sausage forum could use a little more traffic, so many you can help the sausage guys

Well, it doesn't take much to get me to wax poetic over sausage, as you can tell. I try and cut myself off, as while I don't understand this, it seems not everyone shares my awe of a well made sausage, with great ingredients, cooked properly. Let me know if I bore people!

quote:

Originally posted by Pags:

quote:

Originally posted by Chilicat:
Botulism spores can survive past the boiling point. You never want to hold a good pork sausage anywhere near that. It will render the fat out, leaving you with a meat that resembles cooked cardboard in texture. You never want to smoke a "fresh" sausage, cold or hot. People do it all the time, there's only about 30 cases of botulism a year in the US (usually from home canning or smoking), so you've got the odds deeply on your side that nothing will happen. Me? I figure just that once will ruin my day (and the next couple of thousands days to follow).

First of all. Great info. Now the questions:

OK. So I've got a sausage with botulism spores. I'm one of the 30. Are you saying nothing can kill them? Hot smoking or flaming hot grill cause we're never taking the sausage to 212*? Or is there simply a difference between slow and quick cooking? I know a lot of us hot smoke or grill fresh sausage. If this were really a concern, wouldn't the FDA require all sausage to be cured? Please don't tell me it's simply a #'s game.

It's all about the holding time at temps under 140. Grilling, or smoke roasting, it's cooked fairly quickly. That environment is not conducive to the bacteria multiplying and releasing its deadly toxin, so even though you got the sausage with the spore, you didn't give it a chance to grow. You eat the spore, it passes through, nothing bad happens. It's the slow smoking, in an oxygen deprived environment, that allows botulism to grow.

Depending on what type of sausage it is, I try for a 4-8 hour smoke. An hour or so at 120 to dry the casings (develops a "pellicle" that the smoke will stick to), then slowly raise the ambient to no more than 165. As I was saying, fat will render at higher temps, and that's exactly what you're trying to prevent. I look on a sausage as fat held in an emulsion of meat

You're right though, it's partially a numbers game. Also, botulism tends to be present on veggies and produce, not meat (it comes from dirt basically). However, lots of fresh ingredients, like cilantro or parsley, gets put into good sausages you can buy at the markets these days. Odds are pretty stacked in your favor you'll never meet a spore. It's just that one time...

So to distill that long post, quick cook and it doesn't have the chance to grow. However, slow smoking is the perfect environment.

Thanks. I think I'm feeling better. So you're saying if we're merely starting the fresh sausage at a lower heat like 135* for an hr then kicking it up to 225* until 165* internal, we're OK.

quote:

Originally posted by Pags:
Thanks. I think I'm feeling better. So you're saying if we're merely starting the fresh sausage at a lower heat like 135* for an hr then kicking it up to 225* until 165* internal, we're OK.

I would say you'd be fine, but again, you're getting this advice for free so give it equal value. One disclaimer though: careful about rendering your fat out.

I am glad to see you jump in with something similar to what I had been reading on the other sausage boards and in a book i have.

thats exactly what they all say about the risk is the fact that cooking sausage correctly keeps it in the danger zone for so long.

I have now done a variety of sausages my latest was a wonderful chicken basil sun dried tomato variety of got off lens site. It was a fresh sausage and I grilled them all but the 5 lbs didnt last a week.

I have decided to start using the deboned and deskined thighs vs the normal ones and using the skin...I think it still has a bit much fat with the skin on.

I also did some chicken breakfast sausage that I think is great...didnt use skin on that and I dont think its dry at all.

Those of us who live in NorCal are very lucky to have Lockeford Meat Company, in Lockeford, CA within an easy drive. I can't wait to get the fresh jalapeno sausage in my CS smoker No affiliation, just a happy and drooling customer.

Bododio. I figured if you drove over 100 miles round trip to get to this meat supplier, it must be good. Customer reviews on the internet are simply spectacular. So I'm going to have to check it out. All their sausages, especially the Dakota Sausage, get high ratings.

One of these days I'm going to ask the little woman if she'd like to go for a drive. I can't wait to see the look on her face when I pull up in front of the Lockeford Meat Company.

Now that the weather is getting nicer, it'll be a great ride on the Harley through some really pretty country. I'll just strap my ice chest to the luggage rack. You should head up to Auburn and catch highway 49 south to highway 88. That would be one fantastically scenic drive.

quote:

Originally posted by Pags:
Bododio. I figured if you drove over 100 miles round trip to get to this meat supplier, it must be good. Customer reviews on the internet are simply spectacular. So I'm going to have to check it out. All their sausages, especially the Dakota Sausage, get high ratings.

One of these days I'm going to ask the little woman if she'd like to go for a drive. I can't wait to see the look on her face when I pull up in front of the Lockeford Meat Company.

I've done that drive a few times but all the way to Jamestown. Gorgeous.

Just went to Morantz Sausage Kitchen in South Sacramento with a buddy. I picked up a few lbs of Sheboygan and a few lbs of hot Lousiana style sausage--both raw. He got smoked Chorizos'. Looks like smoked sausage this weekend.

Sounds great. Let me know if you need help eating it.

Bododio. You were absolutely correct in describing the Lockeford Meat Company. A couple buddies and I drove over there today, and the place is absolutely incredible.

I didn't realize how many different types of sausages there are, all locally made. I came home with a few pounds of Dakota, Wisconsin, and Bavarian each. Smoking some this weekend.

Thanks for the advise. We're heading back in a couple weeks, about 120 miles round trip.

I'm glad you found it to your liking. Sometimes it's hit or miss, though. You go there with your mouth watering for a specific kind of sausage, only to find when you get there that they don't have it. So then you buy something else so not to have wasted the trip, and suddenly find a new favorite sausage.

They're famous for the bratwurst. They go to almost all the county fairs during the summer. Next time you go, be sure to get the fresh jalapeno sausage.

You took the scenic route, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Pags:
Bododio. You were absolutely correct in describing the Lockeford Meat Company. A couple buddies and I drove over there today, and the place is absolutely incredible.

I didn't realize how many different types of sausages there are, all locally made. I came home with a few pounds of Dakota, Wisconsin, and Bavarian each. Smoking some this weekend.

Thanks for the advise. We're heading back in a couple weeks, about 120 miles round trip.

We smoked up some of the Lockeford Meat Company sausage again, and they were just amazing. They are very tasty, have no grizzle, and are huge (12 sausages, over 6 lbs, thick, at least a foot each). Really unlike any sausage I've ever seen in stores or other meat markets before.

Thanks to Chillicat and Tom. Smoking to temperature of no more than 160 really makes them tender and flavorful. Before this forum, I just simply way overcooked them (went by sight not temp). Thanks again Bododio.

You're welcome. What kind of sausage did you smoke?

quote:

Originally posted by Pags:
We smoked up some of the Lockeford Meat Company sausage again, and they were just amazing. They are very tasty, have no grizzle, and are huge (12 sausages, over 6 lbs, thick, at least a foot each). Really unlike any sausage I've ever seen in stores or other meat markets before.

Thanks to Chillicat and Tom. Smoking to temperature of no more than 160 really makes them tender and flavorful. Before this forum, I just simply way overcooked them (went by sight not temp). Thanks again Bododio.

Wisconsin and Bavarian. Dakota all gone.