How temp. and time affects tenderness

studly,
way kewl question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok here is my take on it and is based from a production view point (ok let's make that a profit view point)
the internal temps won't matter a lick. like smokinokie says "it's done when it's done"
ok that said let's look at one thing-yield.
the one given in cooking is the higher the temp the lower the yield all other things being equal.
by jumping your temps 11% you can expect your yield to be reduced around 5 to maybe 7%. or on a 14 pound packer excpect to come in around .35 of a pound lighter (around 5 ounces). thats nothing unless you are doing several of them and then it all adds up.
there would be no real difference in your finished internal temp.
there would be an increase in your energy consumption but not to any real degree.
the question you asked is just what chefs in convention work ask themselves all the time and many times the temps have to go up knowing the yield will come down to make plating time (darn you sysco ).
just some mind grist to chew on
jack
ps. thanks!!! the question you asked and the one coffeebluff asked made me forget the rotten day i had and reminded me of why i cook!!!!

Jack,

Thanks for the new angle you brought up: yield. I'm not clear on why yield goes down when temps are higher. Is it because you lose more of the juices, which add to the weight?

I'd think the longer something is in a smoker, or an oven, the more moisture it loses and the dryer it gets, which takes away from the weight of the end product. So in that case, I'd think yield would be better at higher temps and shorter cook times because it would retain more of its juices.

So what gives? Why does yield decrease as you increase the cook temp.?

The reason I thought of the original question was because over the weekend I was smoking some chuck roasts with some larger pork butts. I turned down the temp from the usual 225* to 200* late in the evening, so I wouldn't have to get up in the middle of the night to take out the chuck roasts when they were done. Then in the morning, I cranked the smoker back up to 225*.

Well, that didn't work so well. The chuck roasts were in the smoker about 16 hours total and they were really dry tasting. When I was pulling/ chopping it, there was virtually no juice on the cutting board, so the long cook time zapped all the juices from the meat.

That got me wondering: I knew that if I cooked them the whole time at 225*, they wouldn't have turned out so dry. But I also wondered if I had cooked the chuck roasts steadily at 250* for the whole cook, if they would have turned out even more moist on the inside than they would at 225*.

Anyway, let me know about why yield goes down as temps go up. That's interesting ... I never would have guessed that.

Also, are you saying Jack, that whether you cook something at 225* or 250*, it won't have any impact on tenderness? If that's the case, I'm going to speed up my long cooks by dialing the smoker into 250* rather than the usual 225* that I've been using for butts, briskets, chuck roasts and other tough cuts of meat.

Studly,

Without getting too academic, water boils at 212 degrees at sea level. It takes energy to convert it to steam and water vapor. There is a lot more of that energy available to do that job as you raise the cooking temperature, hence more water is evaporated and yield decreases. Therefore as Jack said, the lower and slower generally increases the yield, and does not dry out the meat provided that it will eventually raise to the serving temperature (rare, medium rare, etc.) or the temperature collagen breaks down, (190 or there abouts.)

That's why to be way cool you need to know the temperatures that your CS runs, as well as the temperature of the internal meat. That way you can cook with the pros, like Jack.

As stated elsewhere, you can cheat or get it to the table on time by running your CS low and slow, and if need be, foil and finish off in the oven at 300 or more and keep the yield fairly consistent.

Hey Jerry,

Great explanation. I guess I had it backwards, thinking a higher temp for less time would help the meat retain more moisture. But the boiling water explanation makes a lot of sense.

Well now,I ain't no brisket expert-but inquirin' minds want to know.

Is there a direct line correlation among weight /thickness and time and temperature to achieve internal temp?

Is there a direct line correlation between internal temp and tenderness?

Is there a direct line correlation among % fat to lean and level of collagen and cooker temp to render/break them down to internal temp?

Does internal temp = tender=juicy?

Is there a direct correlation between live animal age/processed animal aging/breed of animal/exercise/feed?

Is there a direct correlation between whether the cooker is a high airflow cooker,or almost none?


If I cook a 1.5 inch thick slice of beef tenderloin at 170º broiler temp to a med /150º internal and I cook another at 600º broiler temp,which will have more juice and be more tender?

Which is more marketable?

If I cook a 1/2 inch slice of brisket flat in a 400º fry pan for about one min/side to an internal of 200º and another in my Cookshack for 8 hrs at 200º which will be more tender and have the higher marketable yield.

Is there a difference in cooking and trimming net weight and marketable net weight ,among different beef and pork products?

Is cooking brisket an art,or a science?

Well Tom, I would have to say briefly that understanding why anyone would try to quantify why anyone would try and take a relatively useless piece of meat, like a brisket, and turn it into a decent meal for self and others, is neither science or art, but just an inane flirtation with the impossible.

That, and seven bucks or so, can buy you a mediocre brisket sandwich at a your local world's best Q joint, or with just a little more money and an eternity of time, a challenge to keep you mentally and physically engaged as long as you desire.

Yep,that could explain why it is the final category in competition bbq.

I'm still trying to figure out why my chuck roasts were so dried out even though I brought them only to 190 internal, and they still needed more time to get tender.

On other BBQ forums, I've read that others say that meat -- such as my dried out chuck roasts -- can get dried out if you go too "low and slow" on the temps. Has anyone experienced that?

Will a lower smoker temp ALWAYS yield a more moist end product than a higher temp when the meat is brought to the same internal temp? Or is it possible that the meat can also get zapped of its moisture if it's exposed to the smoker's hot warm air for too many hours?

tom,
absolutely love it!!!!!! by the way how did you know today made yesterday look like a walk in the park
taking the last question first. brisket is an art. why else would it be refered to as the mt everest of bbq??? i can take all my fancy dan notes,all my culinary school,all my work experience and in the end every brisket is a challenge. i love the things!!!! i love my customers demanding that each one be identical to the last one. the technical aspects will get you in the ball park for sure and the work aspects will teach you how to overcome problems but only by studying a brisket evrytime you cook it can you ever hope to understand the things.
as far as the rest of your list goes i guess that is why i switched from running an engineering department to going to culinary school and becoming a chef and then switching to something really demanding like bbq. there are only so many ways a building can be put together, clasic cuisines have rigid guidlines and are equally constraining----bbq is different everytime you set out but the end goal remains the same consistency batch after batch after batch with a product ,in it's raw state, which is never consistant. bet the food channel can't show that one
man i am happy now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jack

Glad you appreciated the humor,Jack.

On chuck roasts,I don't cook many-because we do so many briskets.

When I did,I'd usually cook into the mid 160º s,at about 225º cooker temp.

Foil it with a chopped onion,1/4 cup sauce and however much stock/coffee/beer/coke,etc. that the foil would hold.

Go into the 180ºs ,if I wanted to slice,190ºs to pull.

Ooooh, you make my head spin. I put the brisket in the smoker, cook it at 180 - 220F for about 1 hour per pound (in my Cookshacks -- I don't know much about cooking brisket in a Fast Eddy's) and it always works. You boys are soooooooo technical!

Donna

Yep,Donna.

That's why I go off on my list of variables,when folks get to complicating the process the CS was designed for.

Good to see you participating some.

We miss ya!

quote:

Originally posted by Donna:
Ooooh, you make my head spin. I put the brisket in the smoker, cook it at 180 - 220F for about 1 hour per pound (in my Cookshacks -- I don't know much about cooking brisket in a Fast Eddy's) and it always works. You boys are soooooooo technical!

Donna

I'm with you Donna. Guess I've been cooking briskets so long it's too EASY

My heads spinning trying to keep you.

You go Tom, figure this out then email me