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We had a discussion in another thread and I copied this over here for discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Wheelz:
Smokin, Tom, et., al., -- What's your take on the statement:

"Although the government will have you believe that 165°F is the minimum temperature to cook your turkey to, clearly you need your turkey to be within the 140 to 150°F range to ensure juiciness."

I know Smokin briefly mentioned it above but -- Can poultry safely be done (both white & dark meat) at 140*? That goes against all I've ever read. My understanding was 150* minimum.

Appreciate any thoughts/input!

Thanks! Wink


The original comments are:

quote:
The problem, as we all know, is with overcooking. So first, a quick look at what happens to turkey (and other meats) as it cooks.

Under 120°F (48.9°C): The meat is still considered raw. Muscle cells are bundled up and aligned in long, straight cable-like fibrils wrapped in a sheath of elastic connective tissues, which is what gives meat it's "grain."

  • At 120°F: The protein myosin, begins to coagulate, forcing some liquid out of the muscle cells, which then collects within the protein sheath.
  • At 140°F (60°C): The remaining proteins within the muscle cells coagulate, forcing all of the liquid out of the cells, and into the protein sheath. The coagulated proteins turn the meat firm and opaque.
  • At 150°F (65.6 °C): The proteins in the sheath itself (mainly collagen) rapidly coagulate and contract. Like squeezing a tube of toothpaste, all the water what was forced out of the cells and has collected within the sheath, is now squeezed out of the meat completely. Congratulations, your turkey is overcooked.

Although the government will have you believe that 165°F is the minimum temperature to cook your turkey to, clearly you need your turkey to be within the 140 to 150°F range to ensure juiciness.



Personally I think he missed that point and dodn't address it. The temp the government recommends for poultry is for food safety reasons and he doesn't really address that. He only talk about the doneness.

I for one love dark meat, but dark meat at 150 is nasty, it's not tender, it's not fully cooked and it's just not good (just me???)

Problem I have with his theory is brisket, for example. Collagen in beef doesn't break down until the 160's hence the plateau. If I cook it to 195 and cut it right, it's melt in your mouth tender and plenty juicy.

I want to post some comments in his article, but I don't want to attack the guy. he's obviously pointing out food science, he just needs to clear up some points.
Original Post

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The 165 guideline is to kill salmonella in Poultry. I know commercially raised chickens are more prone to having salmonella due to the farming conditions, but I have never heard of a single case of salmonella coming from consumption of a wild Duck or Turkey.

I don't like the texture of underdone poultry, but I also don't cook all the way to 165 on a Turkey....
quote:
Originally posted by Tom:
First , about one comment, is Salmonella is gone at 137*.

The other is that the 1920 s is the last case,outside wild game.

The pull temp depends on your cook temp,and what place you are checking.


According to FDA/USDA guidelines Salmonella is killed after ten minutes at 167, thirty minutes at 140, or 131 degrees for an hour so do the math - How long does your Turkey plateau at the above temps? Your chances of Salmonella while smoking at low temps for long times are VERY small.

Most people have more risk from cross contamination in their home kitchen by not properly handling raw poultry, e.g. washing sinks, knives, cutting boards, etc. after opening the raw bird.
The short answer to the question "Is 150 Safe for your Turkey" is yes. It's also safe at somewhat lower temperatures, depending on several factors.

The USDA's 1999 Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) Final Rules (amended 03/05) issued guidelines and time-temperature tables for cooking ready to eat poultry. Separate tables were prepared based upon the percentage of fat in the poultry, ranging from 0% to 12%.

At an average of 6% fat, turkey is considered safe as follows:

145F - 11 minutes
150F - 3.8 minutes
155F - 1.2 minutes
160F - 26.2 seconds

Click here for a complete listing of the tables.

Safety aside, you then have the issue of taste. Most professionals consider 145F as the perfect temperature for the breast. Anything above that, it starts drying out, brined or not. On the flip side, 165F is considered perfect for thighs. Below that temp, even though it's safe, it's stringy and chewy. General guidelines usually recommend cooking the turkey to an internal temp of 165F to 170F in the thigh, then resting the bird for 30 minutes or so as the temp continues to rise a bit. I assume that those guidelines were written by those who prefer the dark meat because at that point, the breast is shot.

The bottom line conclusion I came to a few years ago is that it is essentially impossible to achieve anything near perfection by cooking the whole bird. That's when I started doing parts.
quote:
Originally posted by dls:
...Most professionals consider 145F as the perfect temperature for the breast. Anything above that, it starts drying out, brined or not. On the flip side, 165F is considered perfect for thighs...


Great info. However, what's your source. I've been following turkey trends for year, and this is really one of the first ones I've seen posted that mention something for breast below 160.

Not to disagree, just trying to gather more info, always in search of the good stuff out there.

There's probably only a couple of BILLION turkey threads I haven't seen. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by SmokinOkie:
quote:
Originally posted by dls:
...Most professionals consider 145F as the perfect temperature for the breast. Anything above that, it starts drying out, brined or not. On the flip side, 165F is considered perfect for thighs...


Great info. However, what's your source. I've been following turkey trends for year, and this is really one of the first ones I've seen posted that mention something for breast below 160.

Not to disagree, just trying to gather more info, always in search of the good stuff out there.

There's probably only a couple of BILLION turkey threads I haven't seen. Big Grin


I probably should have used the word "Some" instead of "Most"

A few years ago, I happened to be in Paris when Thanksgiving occurred. I was invited to have dinner at a highly regarded Parisian restaurant that annually served a traditional Thanksgiving dinner for the benefit of their American customers such as embassy personnel, expat reporters for US based publications,etc. The turkey was easily the best I have ever had.

When I asked the chef what they did to keep the bird, especially the breast, so moist and tender, he said they started cooking it in a low oven pre-heated to 200F. Every 30 minutes or so, they increased the oven temp by 50F until they reached 350F. When the breasts were between 140F and 150F, they removed the birds from the oven, removed and foiled the breasts, and continued cooking the remainder for a short time until the stuffing (cubed foie gras mixed with processed chicken breast, cognac, etc) hit 160F. He didn't mention the temp for the dark meat, but I assume it was in the range of the stuffing.

Obviously, if the breasts are pulled at an average 145F and foiled for a short time, the final temp increase will be at least 5F-10F

I later asked some chef acquaintances of mine about the temps, and they agreed with them on a personal basis, but would probably increase them a bit for restaurant service. Some might consider moist breast meat, without the benefit of gravy, as being undercooked. A bit of Googling supported the temps also.

Bear in mind that this isn't an issue of food safety, but one of taste and texture. Just about any recommendation that you see out there pertains to the former over the latter. Most of the time, those recommendations are on a CYA basis.

So, when I do parts, I pull the breasts at 145, TFC them, and do the same with the dark meat at 160F.
Interesting.

Maybe we tend to think that unbrined breast,becomes drop dead overdone,above about 163*,so we figure that this is also the done point?

Apparently,breast fluids change to clear,above 150*+?

I tend to pull pork by 140*,when it has a tinge of pink,but may serve it to company in a romantic,DIMLY lit room.

We know the appeal to many of fine beef at 120*,or even raw.

I have pulled comp breasts by 155* and held in ziploc bags.

We would always be cautious over non- clear fluid,for being disqualified.

Like Smokin',we prefer dark meat,and assure you the mouth feel of underdone thighs is not welcomed.

Now,when are they underdone?

Sounds like a project.

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