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Manufacturing bark in a CS

FM Former Member
The first part of our experiment was successful.

We were able to produce a bark that is about as thick as we used to achieve with an offset; with about the same flavor. We achieved this easily, simply by putting in fresh wood early this morning. Thus, at least in this instance, increasing the time of "fresh" smoking during the cooking process does produce bark in the CS.

The differences in bark now have to do with the crustiness of the bark.

As we most all agree, the humidity advantage of the CS most likely plays a large part in the softness of the bark. Then, how can we duplicate the bark made in an offset while retaining the juiciness of the CS?

Smokin' had mentioned opening the CS door to increase the cooking time and lowering the humidity.

Want to throw this thought up to the forum for consideration: What if we were to cook the brisket to about 170-185 internal; open the door to drain the humidity; change the wood again; continue to open and close the door at 15 min or half hour intervals until the brisket were done? Would this not release enough of the humidity and force the building of bark via the new wood?

Regards, Mike
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FM Former Member
I'm not sure that I understand the search for a crustier piece of meat, but I guess it's one of those things that you understand or you don't . . . there's no real explainin' to do!

I'm not sure that this would work, but rather than extending the time/opening/closing etc, why not finish it off under a broiler to crust it if that's what you want? Or even, God forbid, searing it in a frying pan? Both would seem capable of achieving the crust and the CS has already achieved the smoke flavor. Just a thought.
FM Former Member
Cog, I was not clear...sorry. Smiler

Picture a loaf of crusty bread...now make that crust firm, not flaky.

With that thought in mind, picture a bark (crust) on a brisket that is both very dark and very flavorful. It's loaded with a combination of your spices, smoke, "stuff"
Cool escaping from the brisket, etc.

When you slice the brisket, it's juicy, tender, smokey and flavorful on the inside of each slice (like the bread), and has bark around 3 of the sides. The top bark is softer because it's built on a layer of fat.

For many (us for instance) the bark is a must. For others, it might be meaningless. Personal choice.

When it comes to chopping the point, mixing in the bark adds incredible flavor to the brisket.

BTW, we wouldn't consider pulling pork without mixing in the bark because that's where the flavor is.

We often entertain family and guests. Whether it's chopped brisket or pulled pork, the bark is most always picked over first.

Regards, Mike
FM Former Member
In that case, I've gotta practice.

I saw someone on the other forum pondering as you are. In this case, s/he was making the point that foiling might have some upsides with briskets, but the downside was damage to the bark. Mush bark?
I'll watch your progress with fascination and salivation. acarriii
FM Former Member
Mike, I smoked a brisket on the 4th of July, using a temp of 225 in my CS. It came out of the smoker at noon, was wrapped in butcher paper, then in a towel and stored in an Igloo as per smokinokie's advice. Next I started St. Louie's in the smoker.

I had fired up my Weber which I was planning to use for finishing the ribs...crisp 'em up so to speak. When the coals were ready I banked them off to one side and then decided to heat the briskets...which were still pretty darned hot after 5 hrs in the Igloo.

Long story short, I got involved in a game of horseshoes and forgot about the briskets.
The 30 minutes they spent in the Weber produced a nice crusty bark.

OK, granted it's an extra step to take, but it worked for me.

The bad news? My team lost the horseshoes match Frowner
FM Former Member
Topchef, sorry about the horseshoe match. Cool

The tip on bark is good. Makes me think about what might have happened. As you put the brisket on the Weber indirect, you might have been reducing the moisture content in the bark...which is the goal we're after.

We don't mind the 2nd step..can't figure out a way to get it done in one step, anyway.

We have 10bs of fresh bratwurst smoking right now, for a family get-together at Jan's brother's home this evening. Cooking them until done in the smoker. Putting them back in the fridge. Taking them to his house cold. Heating them on his grill...hopefully, the best of both worlds. 2 steps are necessary in this instance, but might have done them that way just for us, too.

Thanks for the tip...

Regards, Mike
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Rochman:
[qb]As you put the brisket on the Weber indirect, you might have been reducing the moisture content in the bark...which is the goal we're after.

Mike[/qb]


I think you hit the nail on the head, Mike. The absence of moisture in the Weber, combined with the higher temp...I measured 275...dried the outer edge of the meat and VOILA...bark.

This forum amazes me as an endless source of information, tips and ideas. Greats posts Mike!
FM Former Member
quote:
think you hit the nail on the head, Mike. The absence of moisture in the Weber, combined with the higher temp...I measured 275...dried the outer edge of the meat and VOILA...bark.


Topchef..actually, YOU hit the nail on the head! Thanks. Next, we're going to try warming a nice juicy cold brisket in the oven...uncovered. Thinking about taking it to about 140 internal, using an oven temp of about 200. Goal is to take the cold out of the brisket while taking some of the moisture out of the bark.

Your guy's thoughts on internal temp and oven temp???

quote:
This forum amazes me as an endless source of information, tips and ideas.


This is a great place to "hang". The interchange of ideas is extraordinary by web standards. By Q standards, it's unbelievable. Very unique chemistry here. Everyone feels welcome and willing to stick their necks out because they know their necks won't be cut off.

Like any other winning team, this atmosphere starts at the top...from Stuart, his execs, CS support people, Smokin', Tom and other old-timers here, and on down to us.

Can say that I've written more here in a few weeks than any other place I've frequented. Feel like I'm talking ~with~ you guys, rather than posting ~to~ you. Maybe that's why many of my posts are so darn long. Roll Eyes

Regards, Mike
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Rochman:
[qb]

This is a great place to "hang". The interchange of ideas is extraordinary by web standards. By Q standars, it's unbelievable. Very unique chemistry here. Mike[/qb]


It makes you wonder what kind of "damage" we could do if we were able to organize a team for competition.

Mike, the 140 internal temp sounds good. The 200 oven temp is also good, albeit it will take you awhile. I would probably opt for 225.

Good luck and enjoy!
FM Former Member
quote:
It makes you wonder what kind of "damage" we could do if we were able to organize a team for competition.


Telling tales out of school time...

Bob Yeates (a judge at the KC Royale and Qer who "insisted" I buy a CS) pondered the same question with me a couple of weeks ago. He felt that CS would never be allowed because the finished product is so consistantly excellent.

Smokin' suggested to me that we figure out a way to get into the competition and get judged, not for awards, but for ranking.

There is, of course, much more to competition than "technically correct" Q. However, we both feel we could place high. As would each of you.

What would be more fun for Jan and me would be to attend a Qfest where the cookers were all CS owners. It's pretty easy to pack up a Smokette in an SUV or whatever, and slap leather.

We'd sure be there. Ponca City, anyone? Did we hear Stuart say that he'd provide a slew of Smokettes so those of us far away could fly in? Wink What a marketing tool it might turn out to be for CS...sell the used Smokettes to newbies...trade ups on the spot for current owners...where do I go to buy some stock in CS? Cool

Regards, Mike
FM Former Member
Mrs. Smokin' and I both judged the Royal last year and I'm sure we'll be invited back (she's cuter than me). It would be fun to have a team, not even to compete, but just have the smokers going and lots of people asking lots of questions (like --what's that thing????). Maybe we just get a big space at the Royale and just have our own mini-contest and don't even enter the royale.

As far as "an event." We discussed it earlier this year and I think we got very close to doing just that. We went down that path this spring, even have a place here in Oklahoma City with lots of free parking and free power, but the powers that be didn't feel they could devote the time/expense to it -- but felt it was a good idea.

We might just have to do it for them Big Grin
FM Former Member
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Rochman:
[qb]


Smokin' suggested to me that we figure out a way to get into the competition and get judged, not for awards, but for ranking.


Regards, Mike[/qb]


OK, you've got my attention Smiler

How many of you folks out there in CS Q-land would be interested in putting together a team?

I seem to recall that Stogie has been to M.I.M a couple of times. Perhaps he assist us incubate the idea. I see it taking shape one of 2 ways....
1. Entering a cook-off as a team...which means identifying the various contests and building a group consensus as to which one we shoot for. I assume we'd need to join the KCBS???

or...
2. Organize a friendly CS owner get-together along the lines of the Saturn auto owners party. BBQ, golf...mabey a few cold ones? Smiler

Whatcha think folks?
FM Former Member
TC, Smokin', et All, please count us in! Will gladly attend Royale. Just let us know when and where to book the room. Would be honored to be considered to be part of a CS team. A ton of fun. Let's do it!!!

BTW, one Q place we do like in KC,K. is Hayward's. Never gets touted, but we like it better than the name places in KC. Been ordering their sauce 3 gals at a time for years.

Regards, Mike
FM Former Member
started another post about getting together, but here's some information about the Royal.

The American Royale is the largest event for the Kansas City BBQ Society circuit.

It's actually two events. The first is open to "only" those that have won in a sanctioned contest (usually about 50 teams) and the second is an "open" to all comers event. It's at the beginning of a hugh livestock show. Last year when Mrs. Smokin' and I judge, there were over 350 teams entered. It really is larger than Memphis in May (a different Q Society).
FM Former Member
Mike, et al., on the question of a good bark, something has been nagging at me since Mike started this "pondering" thread and since I saw that photo in the Goode Company web site. (Thick crust brisket).
To make a long story short (and to risk heresy in all likelihood) may I ask, why not introduce cornmeal into the formulations?
If you take a catfish filet, dredge it in cornmeal, and throw into hot grease, you get a very nice outcome; a golden fish, shrouded in a cornmeal crust...a bark. It has texture, color, and absorbs fish juice, grease, and other good flavors, and has a nice taste of its own to add to the alchemy.
Cornmeal would provide a real, substantial, substrate onto which to build the bark of a brisket.
I cannot say when or how to bring the meal into the scene (in the rub? as is, sprinkled on as you cook? mixed in the mop?) but, I'm having a hard time letting go of this notion.
Help me let go. It must be madness.
Acarriii.
Razzer
FM Former Member
Along those same lines Acarriii, I visited a Q website today that recommends brushing a thin layer of good old French's Mustard on a brisket prior to sprinkling on the rub.

I've done this with lamb racks...starting them on a grill to sear the meat...then brushing on Dijon style mustard and coating that with a sprinkling of fresh herbs and breadcrumbs. After 15 minutes in a 425 oven it's juicy and moist, with a crispy outside bark...though when dealing with French cuisine we say "crust" Big Grin

French cuisine joke:
Q: What's the difference between a slice of torte and a slice of cake?

A: About $3
FM Former Member
Tongue in cheek humor Mike. When you're charging $28 for "Carre d'Agenau Persielle" (Roast Rack of Lamb with Herbs)... we don't let the meat bark at the customers.

I gotcha on the bark...really I do Smiler

Topchef needs to reclaim a life and find the golf course 1st thing tommorrow morning..hehe
FM Former Member
I have an idea about this bark experiment. And what I am suggesting is something that may not have been done yet to a CS. Reading the comments on bark it seems you need less moisture and more heat. Here's my stab at it. In order to try this someone will need to sacrifice a CS smoker. Maybe the fine folks at cookshack can help. Why not experiment with an additional heating element towards the upper part of the smoker which would add heat to the top of a piece of meat? Hey, I know it's a reach! But I'm thinking out loud here. If moisture is a problem with a second heating element, crack the door a bit. Eeker
Just a thought.
FM Former Member
Hey Spoondog! Interesting approach. Not sure that would work, though. The problem with the bark is too much humidity...but only in the bark.

We would not wish to sacrifice either the ease of extending cooking times, nor the incredible juciness factor as produced with the CS.

Thus, we think we might be limited to one of two approaches...

Near the end of the cooking cycle on a brisket or butt, open the door to release the humidity. Close the door and take the pit up to it's highest temp. Open and close the door every few minutes (10? 15? 30?) until the brisket or butt is finished. This ~might~ not effect the juciness of the meat while removing humidity from the bark.

-or-

Let the meat cool. Fridge it. Reheat naked (the meat, not me) in the oven at about 180 oven temp and take the meat to about 140..a few hours, or whatever.

We don't have a clue what's better, or if either works, but will give both a shot. We have half a brisket in the fridge, so the second thought will be tried first.

Thanks again for your tip...

Regards, Mike
FM Former Member
Better still...

...when I get my Model 150 Smoker/Dehydrator, I'll run the dehydrate cycle to see if that has an effect, instead of adding another heating element. Truth be told, I've mentioned to Stuart that it would be nice to be able to regulate the humidity, but that's not easily done (except by cracking the door).

If it works, you'll all want to trade your units in.

...if it doesn't...we'll I'll have a 9lb piece of brisket jerky.
B bobbyqueMember
As you know, I also am concerned about the bark produced in CS cooks.

In a post in the Beginners forum, I pondered whether an adjustable vent in the bottom and the top of the CS might be useful to decrease the moisture during the cook. Since heat rises, controlling the degree of opening of the vents might drive the moisture out and leave a crunchier bark? Would this keep the temperature more constant than opening the door? Maybe, a better convection current would be set up than through the small opening for drainage in the bottom, and the vent in the top?

No one spoke to this in the other forum! Big Grin
FM Former Member
Folks, our thoughts on bark are that there may not be a way to produce firm bark in the CS without defeating the integrity and purpose of the CS...most tender and most juicy end product. By maintaining a static humidity, CS produces outstanding results every time for us with little muss nor fuss...something that can not be accomplished as effortlessly in an offset, etc.

We feel that to produce a firmer bark, yet maintain the consistancy of the CS final product, the starting point for bark firmness would begin after CS cooking...either by finishing the meat in a house oven, or by cooling and re-heating meat by drier heat. IOW, remove the brisket/butt from the CS at maybe 180+ and finish it in our oven. We're going to experiment with this next brisket.

Our original thought of opening and closing the CS door is probably incorrect. It would also change the function of the CS by forcing the box to allow humidity to be removed from the meat.

Regards, Mike
FM Former Member
BobbyQue and Mike,

Too bad we don't have the "advanced" forum anymore, this subject could go on and on.

I'm in contact with CS pretty frequently and believe me, they're seeing all the comments, and I'm sure they'll take them into consideration on any future "redesigns". But why mess with something successful.

The new 150 that is a dehydrator/smoker may have some benefits, so when I get one I'll let you know how that goes.

I think, that if you cook the brisket to the plateau (165-175), open the door to let the humidity out and then figure out at that point how to create some bark, maybe we can. It'll just take some experimenting.

I agree and like all the ideas, and with some time, maybe we'll solve it Cool

Keep the comments coming!

SmokeaDoodle
It's done when it's done!

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