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This goes back to the theory of sweet blue smoke. Back in the stick burner days, the wisdom went that you wanted the smoke to be translucent (blue). If it was white, your fire needs more air. There are two components to smoke. Supper heated gases and trash solids. The superheated gases are what penetrate the meat and produce smoke flavor. The solids are simply are deposited on the suface and lead to bitter tastes. This leads to the FE. My going in thought was was that time on "smoke" would increase smoke flavor. I'm no longrer think that is true. While the longer time the meat can still take smoke is a factor, but lower the temp means less supperheated gases. Any thoughts?
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the trash solids don't seem to be much of a problem in the fec.
when i 1st got mine i had a hard time getting my smoke taste right and more importantly keeping my smoke temp in the 145-165f area.
while the taste was acceptable (we got 2nd at the fba state championships last october in minneola with a smoker and rig that we had never used due to the hurricanes) it still had a "weird, off taste" to me.
turns out the pellets i was using had a base of alder Razzer
the one thing i have found that really affects smoke uptake is the exterior (and to some degree) interior temp of the meat.
since everything i have read indicates that as soon as the exterior surface hits 165 (or in an other study 145f) the meat stops uptaking smoke i guess my original mistake of putting a brisket that had a frozen interior in was just blind luck. the keeping of good cook notes however wasn't!!
by doing this i find that 4 hours on smoke gives me the taste my customers desire and gives me the smoke ring i want without cheating by using mortons tenderquick in my products.
also i find that a pellet that has oak as it's base works best in my smoker and in my smoker pecan and apple give me both the best taste and smoke ring.
don't really know if this response is what you were asking but i thank you for the question as it made me refer to my notes and rethink my techniques
jack
Fred,

quote:
just go head and say that I'm guilty of a lot of anal extraction
I'm not sure what you're extracting or what it has to do with smoke, unless you are blowing smoke up...well never mind.

I do agree about the smoke vs 180 though. Once you hit 180, you essentially go into a smoke mode. I haven't found a difference except for extending the cooking time by using 4 hours of smoke then 180. I'm pretty sure FE said that he considered them (smoke and 180) the same.
Ron,
What I've come to realize is that there is no such thing as a 'smoke mode'. When the temp is reached, the delay mode kicks in. That actually produces less smoke since less fuel is burned. I've played with variable combustion fan speed. But I think all I'm doing is producing more ash.
Prisonchef, you raise and interesting point about the uptake of smoke stopping at a given temp. Everything I've read also indicates that at some point it stops.
I'm not sure practical experience backs up the science.
One of the reasons I also read that old timers started foiling in the latter half of cooks (butts and briskets for the sake of our discussion here) was to prevent "oversmoking". If at a given temp this stops anyway, why would this be necessary?
When I grill steaks or chops, I always sear the outsides over the hottest part of the fire (one minute twice on each side to make fancy grill marks) then go to indirect heat to reach desired doneness. I always use wood for flavor when grilling (even on the gasser) it would seem the surface temp of my steaks and chops would be well past the "stopping point" for smoke up take, but my taste buds tell me that they've taken up a fair amount of smoke after I've finished searing.

Not trying to pick a fight or anything, just debating the accuracy of what we've both read.
Fred, I thought the theory was that more dense smoke was produced since the fire was less efficient. This is similar to what you said about thin blue smoke. If your coal bed isn't hot enough to efficiently burn the new fuel, you get nasty by products from incomplete combustion.

Craig and Scott, you both raise some interesting points. Fred's got me in the mood for some anal extraction Big Grin

This is my understanding of smoke ring and smoke flavor. They are 2 different things.

The smoke ring is a chemical reaction produced by nitrates/nitrites (and carbon monoxide in smoke). These compounds react with hemoglobin/myoglobin in the meats to produce the color you see. At a certain temperature, hemoglobin/myoglobin denature (cook) so that reaction stops. This reaction can even occur with gas if the gas is incompletely combusted.

quote:
Surface pinking, also termed �pink ring� can occur if
gas ovens or barbecue grills are used to cook meat
products. Incomplete burning of the gas or
contaminates in the gas result in the formation of
nitrogen dioxide and nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is the
active form of nitrite that yields the pink color.
Ref: Meat Color

The temperature at which myoglobin denatures is variable. Increasing the pH increases the heat stability of myoglobin. This temperature can range from 104 to 160 Fahrenheit. Starting with a cold piece of meat and raising the temperature slowly gives a more intense smoke ring because myoglobin has more time to convert before it denatures. Once it denatures, the smoke ring stops forming. As best as I can tell, this is where the idea that meat "stops taking smoke" at 140 comes from.

Ref: Myoglobin 1
Ref: Myoglobin 2

Starting with cold meat will increase the smoke ring. Starting with the smoke setting should, theoretically, give you a more intense smoke ring because the meat stays colder longer. I can't say I've measured the difference but I haven't noticed a big difference starting with 180 versus "smoke." I guess it also depends on what temperature your smoke setting runs.

The smoke flavor depends on the compounds in the smoke. The compounds in the smoke depend on the fuel and the efficiency of combustion. Thick, white smoke has a lot of creosote. Creosote makes the meat bitter and overwhelms other flavors. The taste we perceive is mostly due to smell so the flavors we are looking for are due to the aromatic compounds in the smoke. Higher temperatures (more efficient combustion) breakdown these compounds resulting in less "smoke flavor." What aromatic compounds you start with also plays a large part in what you end up with. Soft woods like pines are loaded with turpentine like compounds so we don't use them. Mesquite is another example of a strong flavor profile. A little goes a long way. This also explains why green wood is so strong. It has a much higher amount of aromatic compounds (as well as moisture which impedes efficient combustion) than aged wood. Over aged wood burns more efficiently (less moisture) and the flavor compounds have declined.

Because the "smoke flavor" is from the deposition of these compounds, the longer the meat cooks in the smoke, regardless of the meat temperature, more smoke flavor is deposited.

Sorry this is so long.
Kathy,

Doc is a REAL Doc, so he goes cerebral on us occassionally.

I like the thread, still contempting my response. I like to challenge some of the traditional concepts (like Smoke Ring being the definition off good Q).

Thanks Doc, great response, well said and all it does is get me thinking more.

So here are the points to be discussed.

1. Smoke vs. 180 setting.

2. Kind of smoke. On whatever setting, what's happening to the smoke? Dense smoke, light smoke, superheated vs solids???

3. Penetration of Smoke Ring and does SR have anything to DO with smoke taste (answer, no, just takes food in a regular CS)

4. Meat ability to hold smoke Related to number 3. I've read some of the same links that Doc posted. I haven't seen any definitive research, but the "internet theory" (my term of ...but I read it on the internet so it MUST be fact theories) is smoke stops penetrating at 140. More like, it varies with the speed it gets to 140 and the kind of protein / myoglobin in the meat and the reactions. Oh, and let's not forget the makeup of the rub having an impact on this too.

5. Kind of wood used

And of course the best answer of all, from Craig:

quote:
...I just like to put it in the smoker and cook it.
You're right (as always) Russ. The smoke ring doesn't affect the flavor.

The smoke ring is a by product of good Q but not necessary for good tasting Q. The KCBS CBJ class states to ignore it (b/o Tenderquick). The problem with that, to me, is like the Judge telling the jury to disregard a defendant's confession.

The smoke flavor produced by pellets is different from the flavor from the offset. I can smoke chicken at 250 with hickory pellets and smoke chicken at 250 with hickory logs and end up with 2 very different products. So something in the processing of the pellets and the combustion method changes the flavor profile.

More thoughts on that later...

It's all good....except for the creosote Frowner
hey
i really like the guidelines smokin set up!!!!!!
so if it is ok i would like to address point 1 first.
the reason i go so long on smoke setting (4 hours)is that based off of my notes i get the best results that way.
from reading the threads there are two things,well maybe three that i am sure of;
1- every fec is different
2- to match your style of cooking and your customers preference you will have to experiment with pellets from various sources
3- in reality good q is never set it and forget it.
but i truly believe the keeping of good notes is the key. is it anal retentive?? to some maybe, but if you do keep good notes you know exactly what your fec will do at any given moment. if you know that then when someone gives you a good idea or recipe you can immediately convert it to what will work in your smoker.
and that is why i do smoke setting and then 180 for 3 more hours before jumping my heat up.
jack
ps. if you want to see anal retentive just watch a good pastry chef. those guys make us all look mentally challenged Razzer
kathye,
heck yes you can post in this section!!!!!!!
glad to see ya in here!!!!!
i learn a lot here because it makes me question what i do and why i do it.
so jump right in the water's fine!!!! Big Grin
jack
ps. plus peggy says it's really nice to see other females. sometimes she gets to feeling she is the only one lol
Kathye,

Smokin' pretty cerebral also, he's just too modest to admit it. All you have to do is to read his posts and "Q" University section.

Jack, I agree with the notes. My problem is reading what I wrote later.

BTW, it doesn't take a pastry chef to make me look mentally challenged....
OK -- I've read all of the above with great interest! I don't use the smoke setting on my FE, mainly cause the only times it's gone out was on smoke. I do augment smoke in other ways and had good results. Cooking for a party last weekend, I got up late, started cooking late, cooked everything fast (300 setting) to make up time. No augmentation of smoke at all, but the brisket and butts had wonderful color and flavor. I have noticed difference in smoke ring in briskets put in the cooker cold versus warmed to room temp.

Mostly, I think I fall into Craig's description...just put it in the smoker and cook it!
Candy,

quote:
I do augment smoke in other ways and had good results.
You can't just throw this out and leave us hanging. What do you do?

I've tried one of the cast iron boxes placed over the burn pot and used pellets as well as wood chips but haven't found a difference. The smoke just seems to go through the system too fast.

I'd add a number 6 to Smokin's list, why is the smoke flavor different with pellets versus stick burners? Surely you have an opinion on this Big Grin

I also had a question for you about the "shelf life" of pellets. With wood, I like it aged 6 months to a year. Are pellets best within a given time frame or does it matter?
Cast iron smoke box is way too heavy. It's best in a WSM or grill. I make a foil packet and put it on the roof above the fire pot. What this does is put out smoke when the cooker cycles hot. When it's not hot it doesn't. Also been known to put a stainless steel box (no lid) along side the firebox with wood chips or pellets. I've also used a smoke stix chunk (giant pellet). Light it and it'll smoulder for hours in the bottom of the FE.

On number 6, IMO pellet fire is cleaner than stick burners that's why there's a difference in smoke flavor, no creosote.

Is no shelf life on pellets. They will last indefinitely as long as they are kept dry. Get them wet and you've got a bag of mulch for your garden. Pellets are processed so that the "essential" flavors of the specific wood are locked into the pellet.
Candy,

quote:
Originally posted by Candy Sue:
[qb] On number 6, IMO pellet fire is cleaner than stick burners that's why there's a difference in smoke flavor, no creosote. [/qb]
I think you just hit on a good marketing slogan for pellets/pellet burners. "Taste the smoke--NOT the creosote." Wink

Paul
Let me see,
A pellet burner unlike other cookers (except gas)varies the flow of fuel to maintain heat. The others control oxygen to maintain temp which causes a less efficient fire causing more smoke debris to be deposited on the surface. Thus giving more or too much smoke flavor to the product. Where the pellet burnner gets more efficient in the delay mode and low temps thus giving less smoke flavor to the product. The bottom line is that the lower the temp the less smoke producted. If I want to simulate a stick burner flavor, I need to use auxillary smoke or reduce the efficiency of the pellet burner. Varing
compustion fan speed would allow the control of burner efficiency and therefore smoke flavor...

Doc T,
Anal extraction.. I was afraid that if I said that I pull this "stuff" out of my ass, smokin' would kick me off the forum.
Let me begin by saying this is one of the best threads (or anything else) I've read on this subj anywhere, thanks to all who've contributed. This is now my go to reference on the subject.

Smokin', please elaborate on your comment at the end of #4 above, about rub make up and its bearing on smoke penetration. The obvious to me would be sugar content and "crusting" that's desireable to help retain moisture content also acting as a barrier in the other direction to smoke, is there more to it than that?

The "loitering" time of smoke in the FE, is an interesting thought also. Makes me wonder if the cooling of the smoke between the firebox and the stack on a stick burner has some effect on the process that isn't duplicated in the FE due to the volume of air/smoke cycling through the cooker.

I'm having my best results so far (60 day noobie owner) NOT trying to emulate stick burner cooking. The FE seems to be its own animal and require its own methods of operation due to its efficency. The cleaner smoke is a wonderful thing, it just requires different management to produce the desired results. LACK of smoke FLAVOR isn't something I've had a problem with, learning that great smoke flavor on a brisket doesn't necessarily come along with a 3/8" thick smoke ring has been a little more challenging for me.
quote:
Originally posted by scott in KC:
[qb]Smokin', please elaborate on your comment at the end of #4 above, about rub make up and its bearing on smoke penetration. The obvious to me would be sugar content and "crusting" that's desireable to help retain moisture content also acting as a barrier in the other direction to smoke, is there more to it than that?
[/qb]
There are rubs which have nitrates in them and if you leave them on, they will actually start the SR formation and some "swear" they make a better ring.
This may be an obvious method to all you long time smokers out there, but it's new to me. I've always spent time rubbing in my rub trying to get it in all the cracks and crevices until the last brisket I smoked. I read I believe in Paul Kirk's book that the rub should be sprinkled on instead of massaged in to allow for better smoke penetration. Sure enough, I noticed a better ring and bark on that brisket than ever before. I still applied the rub liberally, but just didn't push it in.

It could be a fluke, but it worked well for me. I had nothing but moans coming from across the table.

Thanks for all the great info you guys and gals.

Mike

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