Sweet goopy 'que?

Donna,

That was taking quite a risk with your diabetes. I'd bet every team at that contest has plenty of honey in their camps this past weekend.

Rod
Pellet Envy

Donna,

I can tell you that in the south they like it way also along with their tea. I know I don't put honey in anything but my beans. I don't care for my bbq sweet also.


Craig

I think we need to get you out Judging some, and see if that's the norm. Key isn't what is Good Que, but what wins

Yep,judges have a sweet tooth.

Ribs and chicken can turn into sauce contests.

Well, there is something wrong with a system that encourages mediocre barbecue to win. Anything that is smothered in sugar is mediocre in my book. I want to taste the meat, the smoke, a little heat perhaps, and seasoning that complements, but does not overpower any of the above. Anything that leaves me with aching teeth and goo running down my arms does not meet my standards.

I bet I have let myself in for it now! Let me have it guys! Bring it on!

Donna

You sound like a perfect judge to me. I think thats almost the exact same thing I said on the final show of the OLN All Star BBQ Showdown last year when I got to judge the final winner!

Donna,

You're fairly new to the competition forum discussions, but this topic is not. It's one that will never have any answer, just theories.

While we all have opinions about what good Q is, when you pay your money to enter, you put in what you think will score well and win.

Also, realize, you may or may not have tasted anything that won, since you don't know which entries you tasted or didn't and you don't know how they did.

I've been around those "leftover" tables and a lot of time, the bad entries are left over. The good stuff is taken by the judges at the table that judged the entry.

A LOT of those judges, certified and not, like Sweet. Maybe not to your taste, but if it scores and you win, then you take home a check.

If you want to stand by your convictions for only a certain type of Q, then you'll probably be standing there when the others go up and collect their checks.

The only way is to go out, compete with your taste profile and see how it does. Heat might be what you like, but get a judge who hates heat and you'll get a 6 and wonder why? Same, if a judge doesn't like sweet, does he judge down for sweet? Not supposed to, but I've seen plenty of judges that do what they're not supposed to do.

I may not have tasted anything that won in B-ville, I have no way of knowing, but since it seems to be a common belief that judges like sweet stuff, then I assume that's what's being turned in for the most part.

How do we know that judges like sweet? Where did this belief originate?

If they do, then it would stand to reason that they would be taking the sweet stuff home, wouldn't it, and it wouldn't be showing up in the leftovers?

I am not experienced, but I am a certified KCBS judge, and in my class, taught by Ed Roith, we were told to judge on what tasted good to us. What I understood is there is no firm judging standard, just subjective opinion. Merl Whitebrook (Whitebook? I am not sure) of the KCBS, says that he tells people to judge by whether they are neutral about it, like it well enough to eat the whole piece, like it well enough to take it home with them, or dislike it enough that they don't want to finish the piece and don't want to take it home with them. That could mean that they judge up or down based on personal taste, so there is no wrong way to do it.

Again, I am not experienced, I am just exploring these ideas so I will understand better.

(And I would judge down for sticky sweet because it's not how I like meat to taste.)

Donna, who needs to get out there and do some judging so she can strut around with authority! (Just so everyone knows, I am making fun of myself.)

One way you know some judges like sweet is when they take large handsfull from each box on the grazing table to put in their bag.

They then will tell you they mix it all in a pan at home and pour a bottle of sweet sauce over it.

Stir and cook awhile and it makes the best you've eaten.

If they come from the local area,look at the shelves in your supermarket and see what they buy the most of to eat at home.

Another is setting around the table and listening to judges talk,after they turn in their scorecards.

The latter is why many cooks judge some.

Also,if you have a heavy mix of non certified judges,they taste what they are used to at the chain restaurants.

Boiled off the bone ribs,soaked in sauce.

Overcooked dry pork/brisket,soaked in sauce.

Tasteless chicken,soaked in sauce.

Just a couple thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by Donna:
...and in my class, taught by Ed Roith, we were told to judge on what tasted good to us.

I need to send you a DVD of Ed judging Fast Eddy's stuff for the BBQ All-Stars.

Well, I think that's how many judges judge, which is wrong. You're supposed to judge on the merits of that entry, not what you think is good Q. Thats why they tell the class, don't compare this to what you made last weekend or what you at last week at Tony Roma's. At least that's what's been taught by Ed at my class.

Donna they're all good questions, but they'll never have an answer. KCBS nor any food group can ever establish a consistent taste standard.

Like Tom said, we know judges like sweet because we talk, among the teams, among the judges, on the internet. And if a team competes enough, and they win enough, well, they just know what won (but they're not going to talk about it...we do have to have some secrets)

Of course, that's those judges. The judges in Enid didn't like my ribs but that's okay. Next group will.

There IS no standard no will there ever be. It's just one of those things that drives teams batty and no amount of us talking about it will reveal what judges really think. Because at the next contest....there are new judges.

I've been a Table Captain at enough to know how judges think. and they all think differently.

You just never know which judge is going to like your stuff.

That's why I went 1st, 1st, 1st, 14th on chicken last year. The 4th contest didn't like the chicken.

NOW you see why so many people don't compete.

Donna,
We've done both, sweet and goopy stuff and the kind of bbq where you can taste the meat. When we did the meaty bbq, we did terribly with the judges but won in people's choice. Our bbq "where you can taste the meat" gets lower scores from the judges but customers like it better. I'm happier selling bbq to people who appreciate a bbq meat as opposed to a sauce with some meat texture.

I wonder if the judges don't have clean palates between each taste. I would imagine if you had a very meaty tasting bbq coming behind a very sweet one it would taste pretty bland.

Also, we spoke with a judge who thought wood pellets were something to eat. She had no clue about the methods of cooking. As she said, "I'm just here to eat." If you pay $25.00 a class for a year of judging certification, you can get a lot of food for cheap, and I think that's the draw for a lot of the judges. I took the judging class for FBA, and I felt it was a great class, but I think if I wasn't a bbq cook, it might not have meant a lot to me.

Like Tom says, that's just my 2 cents.

Peggy

Oh, by the way, when Jack's brisket came in 2nd it was just brisket and spice with no sauce at all! He does it the same way now and we always sell it out! Brisket doesn't need sauce if it's done well.
I'm bragging on him.
It never finished well after the first competition.
They are fun to do, but sure will drive you nuts at times.
Peggy

donna,
i know exactly what you are talking about and i agree with you but i will advise you of what i have advised many friends. competition q ain't necessarily good eatting q. now let's dissect this from a point of reference that i am really familiar with and that is American Culinary Federation competitions. in those competitions all judges must be certified chefs. that means their palates are trained and therefore can judge each entry on it's own merits (reference peggy's comment about the lady who was only there to eat. peg left off the sorriest part of the story and that is this woman actually attempted to eat bbqer's delight orange pellets!!! not only that but she demanded that we put up a warning that they were not to be eatten!!!) feel better now back to acf comps. in acf comps you are judged not only on product taste but minor things like waste,adherance to sanitary rules and conditions,plating and (if you can believe it cleanliness of your work area afterwards). the biggest problem i have seen in my area is judges who view it as a free meal and a few board fba members who view it as an old boys club. after being verbally accosted at the minneola contest by a board member who was well into his cups and members of a top level team during the 2 hour drive back home we decided that until the judging became more professional we would only do competitions within our immediate area and then only as a bus man's vacation since we do miss many of our friends that we have made.
i hope i didn't make this sound too strident but i do expect that the judges and board members conduct themselves as i do along the the professional lines that i learned in the acf
jack
ps. passed our state inspection with flying colrs again. tell everyone at cookshack thanks for making our life ez

tom,
for the reason we no longer compete just read the above
jack
and by the way we do miss not seeing you and barbara.
also we always felt that we had a fair and just shot when you were judging just like every other competitor did

Having been around the corner a few times, I have learned that if you don't do it full time ANY sport with subjective judging & many with very stringent rules are not designed to let the occassional participant in. Every once in a while a newbie wins by mistake.

Most any of these 'sports' are ruined by the equipment race & who spent the most money.

In BBQ, you can cook in a trash can with a grate for $25., or a 25 ' offset that uses a treee at a time. The results are the same, but the guy using the trash can is only out every once in a while.

I don't compete in anything anymore, I just do it for fun and comraderie.