Tom - Competition Brisket

Why did you braised it?

My guess was Preston meant seared.

I mentioned in another post that KCBS should be cooking and judged against a standard,not just subjective or personal attitudes.

On appearance,would you really like to grab it and take a bite?Is it presented in the box like the cook took some care with it and gave it eye appeal?

If it is sauced,is it lightly glazed for evenness or is the cook trying to hide bad meat with a heavy coat of sauce?

Does the sauce compliment the meat?


If it is injected,did the needle leave tracks and pockets of flavoring agent?

If it is sliced across the grain into #2 pencil thick slices,can you hold each end and gently tug about 3/16- 1/4 inch and it separates?

If you use your tongue to press a bite against the roof of your mouth,does it have some body or turn to mush.Is it still stuck there hard after several minutes,that's too tough.



Does it have some boldness of good flavor?Does it have an objectional taste or mouth feel?

Does it need a little salt to drive the flavor?

Is it moist or do you need water to get it down?This is difficult to do with brisket,as it dries quickly after slicing.

Hopefully the judge will make some allowances for it not being warm.

I'm sure Smokin',Stogie,Jim Minion,and drbbq can think of a few things I've left out.

drrbq is one fine brisket cook and the only one of the above that I've eaten their cooking,so he is the only one I can speak directly about.

He works with the cut of meat he is given and does the little things from prep to presentation that makes that particular piece a winner.

Every brisket is different and some thought and variations are necessary.

He tries hard to make me a better cook and judge,and he can cut right to the chase on this stuff.

Nope Tom, I think you've about covered it. Other than how do you judge against a standard when the judge is subjective I think the only way to do that would be to have one judge do all the entries and then they'd all be judge the same. But what if this is the judge that thinks you have to have a smoke ring for perfect brisket?

Hey Preston, sign up and do some judging. If what you're trying to find is how your brisket stands up to competition brisket, this is the sure fired way. I'll tell you after judging the American Royal Open and Invitational's and 100's of teams you see a lot of entries and get a quick lesson.

You'll find that regardless of the organization and their rules, each judge will have their own "interpretation" about what is good,bad,poor,subjective,etc.

When I'm a table captain and I talk to the new judges, they almost always say that they KNOW what good Q taste like and they want to see how their Q stacks up against the competition. Wrong. They're already setting standards for judging without knowing the contest rules. As a captain, my main objective is to take people who have never judged and try to explain to them that the team entered has spent a lot of money to get to this contest. Don't judge that team on what you think is good Q, judge them on the organization standards and only judge their entry, don't judge them against the other items entered at that table. Each entry could be a 180 or perfect score if that what it scores.

Maybe we can have some Brisket in Jacksonville at NBBQA and have some good discussions.

Smokin'

Ya got that right.

As table captain,you remind them that you don't judge smoke ring[as if they would listen ]

Although MIM still allows you to count the smokering on the pork,if you feel it materially affects the appearance-or even taste ,through the bark.

Of course at some MIMs you might find the parking lot attendant judging and no table captain.

Especially tuff when they have some celebrity judges.

How'd ya like ta concentrate on shoulder appearance with Dolly Parton across the table from ya?

Tom Ouch what are your real feelings on MiM

I certainly meant no disrespect to MIM as a sanctioning organization.

They have excellent reps and train their judges well.

Their judges training is a good bit more extensive than KCBS and the judges are required to be judged by the cook teams that they judge,at least twice before they can apply for certfication.

MIM may deny certification at this point.

The problem is that there is so much to judge at an MIM event,the certified judges get spread very thin and the rep has to cover with whomever they can find.

This also happens at some KCBS and other events.

An example is that at this year's Big Pig Jig,the second largest MIM and usually rated in the top five cookoffs in the country,they required about 330 judges.

Judges pay all their own expenses and must travel a lot for these major events.

Hope this helps a little.

Sorry to be away but I had a few 12-14 hour days here at work. This job would be alright if it wasn't for the customers...

Yeah I guess searing is the appropriate term...the brisket is fine the way it is coming off the smoker, but I like to have a crisper bark(?) and kick it up a notch in flavor with the searing.

...so what I am doing is giving it a quick saucing and then crisping up the bark on the briskets with a quick sear...to me and to my quests it just takes it up a level on flavor and texture.

I am doing that for pork shoulders, butts, ribs and I like the flavor when I do it. Just a couple of minutes (no more than 4 or 5 minutes).

I wish I could get into judging (Tom's not a bad guy at all to hang out with! ) but my work schedule is strenuous and I just can't get away most weekends. Not real dependable to the BBQ folks who would need me for the contests.

I think if I would participate either as a competitor or a judge it would be KCBS. Nothing against MIM, but for competing it is expensive with the site setups and with the judging being more intensive with their certification processes...also seems that MIM being more concerned with site visits and appearance involves larger teams and equipment...

I guess the truth of the matter is I am getting pleased with my brisket results...everyone loves it...and based on what Tom is saying above it looks like I am on the money or darn close with the brisket quality.

regards,
PrestonD

Thanks I'll have to try it.

OK Tom, here goes. Some of your criteria is way to specific and definitely not taught by KCBS or the FBA. This stuff has caused cooks to coin the phrase "Super Judge". Please don't become one.

Does it look good? Does it taste good. That's the criteria.

"If it is sauced,is it lightly glazed for evenness or is the cook trying to hide bad meat with a heavy coat of sauce."

Maybe the guy just likes alot of sauce. Judge it the way he presented it.


"If it is injected,did the needle leave tracks and pockets of flavoring agent?"

Injecting is legal and a judge shouldn't be trying to analyze the cooking process anyway. If it looks bad judge it down, please don't try to inspect it.


"If it is sliced across the grain into #2 pencil thick slices,can you hold each end and gently tug about 3/16- 1/4 inch and it separates?"

Do you carry a ruler? Is 9/32" a deduction?

"If you use your tongue to press a bite against the roof of your mouth,does it have some body or turn to mush.Is it still stuck there hard after several minutes,that's too tough."

What?


"Does it need a little salt to drive the flavor?"

Again, not your job to analyze my recipe.

Hey Doc,

One day I will make it over to Largo and try your que...but in the meantime, what precisely do you look for in the criteria of an excellent brisket? What is it when you produce a brisket out of your smoker that makes you say "This is gonna be good" or "This is gonna be bad"?

I don't think Tom was exactly over-analyzing, he was answering my question in detail cause you know what? I have never tasted competition brisket!!! Man I am missing out! I have mine which I think is good and what some of the chain bbq restaurants call brisket...

Looks like I either gotta make it to Largo or become certified as a judge!

Regards,
PrestonD

drbbq,thanks.

You're insightful and helpful,as usual.

As you mentioned,it is cooking and not laboratory measuring.

Like Preston says,I was trying to answer some questions for someone trying to visualize a picture, that they had never seen.

I personally think Cajun bbq shrimp looks and tastes good,but I'm not sure that helps with the explanation of what the judge might see at the brisket presentation-for someone thinking about cooking at home to emulate it.

They do teach that the cooks expect some consistency for their efforts,not the way the judge likes to serve it to his mother-in-law,
nor the way the judge thinks a sanctioning body ought to do it.

There has to be some sort of standard,[although subjective attitude is dicey to get specific with].

You have to pick a start point, and after that it is judgement.


IMHO cooks would like to have a feel that the judges might be looking for something similar to shoot for in the same
product,so they aren't getting 3 s from one judge and 9 s from the rest.

Maybe that's why you started me on that part of the process,to see what the cooks present and the judges anticipate?

First off I didn't mean to be so testy but I was in a hurry this morning.

I did mean what I said though. The standard you mention is what super judges are about and it's a problem because the super judges have set the standard and it's not their place. If we need a standard let's put it in the rules, if not then there shouldn't be one. Use your own judgement. Obviously experience helps but it should be your experience. Not some influential super judge.

Now what I look for in a winning brisket is texture, I do pull on a slice but I never measured the stretch. It either feels right or it doesn't. I squeeze the slice between my fingers too. Kind of like you said about the roof of your mouth. I heard Ed Roith talk about that roof of your mouth test and I still don't see how that could mean anything.

The other things are juiciness and taste. Not much you can do about either one but when it's a good one I can tell. I was cooking in Huntsville with Qsis and when I tasted one of the briskets I told her it really was special and it had a shot. It was a perfect score and 3rd or 4th place because of ties.

See you in Okeechobee.

Thanks again,Ray.

drbq has a whole lot more insight and experience, that is difficult to type into a quick message.

I'm not necessarily saying you have to go work with him all day in one of his classes-but having spent enough other time with him-it would be invaluable.

Other than hard work,there should be a lot of entertainment and outright fun.

Most of us know that cooking is a process of adjusting to all the variables, and experiencing the process -while having help where we need it-is priceless.

Smokin' is doing a great job with 101 s and pix,and the other members' pictures help.

If all those people could be with us for a day of cooking a bunch of products,and helping us figure out where we should adjust-it would be invaluable.

The process of standing with drbbq,and a few other good teachers-that are actually willing to share and explain-overcomes years of guessing what a passage or picture meant.

Ray once told me,as we stood in awe of some of these great cooks' conversations,"they don't even know that the stuff they are saying is special.They think everyone knows this stuff".

Anyway ,my take on the long conversation,is that lots of cookin,samplin',comparin' and discussin' is what is fundamental to preparing ,presenting,and making a judgement about any good product.

Debate[adult beverages seems to lubricate the fine endeavor], among the people that love the product and the process,is elemental.

I certainly agree that the cooks' perspective
and what they decide to make the rules, should be what drives the judging process.

Well said both DrBBQ and Tom too...
Thats whats so cool about competitions...you meet the absolue nicest people you have ever met. I met Jady of the FBA at Grant, FL BBQ Contest this last fall and he offered me a cold beverage and comfortable chair and delightful dead on barbecue conversation for easy over an hour. DrBBQ dropped in and I sat there in awe listening to these guys talk que...it was great.

So anybody out there ought to visit a competition and visit with these folks. Hopefully it will be the day before turn in (usually Friday) so the cookers have time to visit with you. Saturdays or days of turn in are too crazy for them as they are trying to get their product ready and have been up all night cooking.

Take care folks!

PrestonD