Tried a different method on a brisket today

Hey, mbaily,

Last summer I had some left over brisket flat and cubed it up and used it in texas chili (Wick Fowlers version). We've never had chili so good! Try it if you are not a purist on how you use your leftovers!

I gave the hot and fast method a try back in July but my method was a bit different than yours. Started with a 15# post trimmed Wagyu from SRF. S&P for rub. Smoked at 275 using mesquite pellets until plateau. Wrapped with foil, beef bouillon and a stick of butter and finished it at 300 o. Done around the 9 hr mark.

Despite lack of smoke and crusty bark, it was very good. I'm tempted to repeat using butcher paper at plateau in hopes of more bark. Then too, 2 staging 190/276 o would be my next experiment in hopes of adding more smoke. Like the pros say, one change at a time.

I always thought hot n fast was in the 325-350 range and done in about 6 hours.

Trying to decide if my next brisket cook will be hot n fast or real low n slow with butcher paper.

quote:

Originally posted by AndyJ:
I always thought hot n fast was in the 325-350 range and done in about 6 hours.

I've got some friends that cook brisket hot and fast on their cans....500-600*, guess the hot and fast range can be different for different folks.

It was hot and fast compared to what we usually do. I honestly don't see how you could get tender cooking at 500 F + but I've never tried it.

to me, H&F is 300 and above.

quote:

Originally posted by mbailey:
It was hot and fast compared to what we usually do. I honestly don't see how you could get tender cooking at 500 F + but I've never tried it.

I've never tried it either, but Jeff(KC Can Crew) took first place last spring at an IBCA contest in the heart of Texas. I'd guess that would make it legit.

I would not suggest cooking a waygu, (especially the Gold Grade) in the two stage or low n slow method.

The reason being, you will melt out all of the fat in the waygu long before the meat is done and it will be a nice hunk of crumbled brisket.

Use an amazen tube and crank the FEC up to 300 and wrap it around 4 hours.

Most of the can guys are running at 350 and wrapping at two hours.

OK, Newbie to brisket here... Can someone explain why a Gold Grade (whatever that is) wagyu brisket is being cooked for traditional brisket competitions? What expertise is being highlighted when so many dollars are spent on the product? I guess I am a bit of a (wannabe) purist, but I am having trouble seeing how this idea "competes" as far as traditional ability to make a fabulous piece of meat from a Tough SOB of a cut. No offense to anyone, just trying to understand.

quote:

Originally posted by David Qualls:
I would not suggest cooking a waygu, (especially the Gold Grade) in the two stage or low n slow method.

The reason being, you will melt out all of the fat in the waygu long before the meat is done and it will be a nice hunk of crumbled brisket.

Maybe?....maybe not? I've always heard that if your brisket was crumbling, maybe you cooked it too long...

I agree with Jay1924, waygu is not what the average Joe cooks.

quote:

Originally posted by Jay1924:
OK, Newbie to brisket here... Can someone explain why a Gold Grade (whatever that is) wagyu brisket is being cooked for traditional brisket competitions? What expertise is being highlighted when so many dollars are spent on the product? I guess I am a bit of a (wannabe) purist, but I am having trouble seeing how this idea "competes" as far as traditional ability to make a fabulous piece of meat from a Tough SOB of a cut. No offense to anyone, just trying to understand.

Snake River Farms (amongst others) began marketing Wagyu briskets about 10 years ago. The competition world latched on to it thanks to Myron Mixon and a handful of other comp cooks. The theory was, the abundant marbling of Waygu would translate to more flavorful, tender and moist slices for the judges. The "gold" designation is Snake River's designation as per it being the best of the best, and of course, more $$

I've smoked S.R.F. Wagyu briskets (not gold) at home and at a few comps. There's no denying that they render great flavor, moisture and tenderness. On the flip side, I've smoked a few random USDA Choice packers and 1 or 2 Creekstone Master Chef Choice briskets that were pretty darn close to Wagyu comparisons and were 1/2 the cost.

Folks such as Tom might suggest smoking a decent looking Walmart or Sam's Choice packer with a minimum of fuss and just let the Cookshack smoker yield terrific results that would please any crowd.

Thanks Max, for your usual balanced and considered response. I don't think I'll be spending Wagyu prices anytime soon for brisket to go into the smoker. On the other hand, a Wagyu ribeye or strip steak for the grill might represent a (somewhat) reasonable splurge for a special occasion. Tom and Cal always have great advice on brisket - I'll keep listening to them, too.

I'm no expert,but I've had the opportunity to hang around a few,over the years.Most of them said keep it simple as the K.I.S.S.If you are a top Chef,or better comp cook,use the best meat you can afford that you cook the best.

I'm afraid with all the good advice about different stuff the fine cooks here have offered,that if I punched this thread into the FIND,I wouldn't remember what the original question was.

Seems like what I've picked up about the "Franklin method",he had cooked more than a few packers for someone else,before he started his own operation.His cook's plan was to acquire the best packer he could and trim each batch to suit him,as time would permit.

When given his choice,he was cooking Meyers upper choice/prime from Red Angus bloodstock.

There are reports ,as his volume ballooned,he would order all the packers from 200 Creekstone steers that graded out to his specs every week.This was the time the rest of us couldn't order any from them.

There were a couple weeks in there,he could only get select and had to change up his cook technique and still didn't suit him.

Yep,his homemade stickburner would lay on more smoke,easier,than our "micro stickburners".

Yep,his S &P rub just accents the beef.

Reference your choice Hereford,unless you cook a bunch from the same herds,they could vary.As we know "choice" could be 3/4 of the meat grading triangle[you could get the bottom...or the top of the choice].Whole Foods and places like them often claim they are "upper choice".
Up in your area of IA the quality herds might not even have government grading.The firms that buy the specific cuts from them,specify size,quality,age,bloodline,etc.The Chefs,comp cooks,etc learn to rely on them being consistent.

I like your idea of cooking a pair and comparing them.

Just my $0.02 worth.Enjoy.

Did some more experimenting today. 10.5# whole packer after I had cut about 3# of the flat off of the end to grind into some hamburger.

Smoked at 224 on a FEC 100 to internal of 160 (9 hours from a cold start), spritzed with some worchester and water mix, wrapped in unwaxed butcher paper and waited (and waited and waited ) for it to hit 200.

Took another 9.5 hours to finish. Still didn't get as much smoke ring, had good bark (better than what I usually get) but the internal meat was dryer. Overall flavor was about the same since I used the same rub and wood to cook with.

It was fun playing around with a couple of different ideas but I don't feel the butchers paper method is giving us near as good of finished product as the way we have been doing it in the past.

If any of you care to try our "normal way" and you have a holding cabinet of some sort, I recommend try it out. Smoke to 160 or so, wrap in a plastic bag (I use a pan liner) and put in a full size pan, throw it in the holding cabinet at 195 - 205 and it takes approx. 8 hours to finish. I have 3 different cabinets and they all have their own quarks so temp will vary.

The reason I think this works so well is it is almost like a crock pot environment, only bigger! Very subtle temp swings since the cabinets are only 800 watts, unlike a normal kitchen oven that can easily swing 50 or more degrees. After 160, I don't think the meat takes on to much more smoke anyway. I can back off the heat a little or turn it up a hair to meet my finish times as needed but that 200F (cabinet temp) is where they finish the best.

Guess I will just have to take a drive to Austin and try some of Franklin's to see what all the hype is about. Maybe I can get a free meal in return for the rest of my unused roll of butcher paper.

quote:

Originally posted by David Qualls:
I would not suggest cooking a waygu, (especially the Gold Grade) in the two stage or low n slow method.

The reason being, you will melt out all of the fat in the waygu long before the meat is done and it will be a nice hunk of crumbled brisket.

Use an amazen tube and crank the FEC up to 300 and wrap it around 4 hours.

Most of the can guys are running at 350 and wrapping at two hours.

David:

You surprise me with this post. I followed your posts in early 2012 on your hot and fast experiments, and you seemed to be disappointed with the results. I thought you only changed to hot and fast when you were cooking on the R&O stickburner.
On my own trials, I have been disappointed with hot and fast in the FEC. I really like the two stage low temp' start at 180-190, then staying below 235 at least until the meat is wrapped, then after wrapping adjust temp up to meet my timetable. But I personally prefer hot and fast all the way if I am cooking on a stickburner.

I am curious. Was there something that changed for you to now advise cooking hot and fast on the FEC?