Fire Going Out

What settings were you using and what set point(temp) were you smoking at?

I use mine in the wind, always have smoke coming out the pellet hopper.

I've found if the HHT setting is to high for the temp your cooking/smoking at...that is when problems occur.

I got a vacustack for my FEC but ultimately it was the fire pot causing my problem. I kept the vacustack on though figuring it's paid for & can't hurt. Mine fit a round elbow I bought. Square to round is a whole different animal. I'd ask Tony if CS could fabricate an adaptor for you. Another option would be to return the 500 for the 1000. It's got a round stack!
Play around a little more like Cal says. You may not need the cap and could return unused.
Joe M

quote:

Originally posted by cal:
What settings were you using and what set point(temp) were you smoking at?

The first time was when I was following the initial seasoning instructions in Cookshack's manual using factory settings LHT=10 & HHT=100, set temp of 400*. Had 3 flame-outs during that first hour plus that I know of.

Next time temp set was 225* with LHT=15 & HHT=100 initially, then lowered to HHT=80.

Another time temp set to 375* with LHT=20 & HHT=60.

I do not sit and watch the grill as it is cooking, but do go out to check it to see what the temp probe in food is registering. It is then that I will see the grill belching a ton of smoke and the temp of the grill is dropping fast - way below the set point and when it gets down to anywhere from 200* to 150* I will hear it re-ignite with a little "whoof" and grill temp climbs back to set point.
I am keeping the fire pot vacuumed-out before I start it up (good thing to do per Tony), and I am using Cookshack pellets.

Occasionally there are some clunking & groaning sounds as the auger turns, and other times it is just the little whirl of the auger motor and you can hear the pellts dropping into the fire pot. In chatting with Cookshack (Tony), it was felt this was just a sideways pellet or too long a pellet being forced down the feed pipe.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe M:
I got a vacustack for my FEC but ultimately it was the fire pot causing my problem. I kept the vacustack on though figuring it's paid for & can't hurt. Mine fit a round elbow I bought. Square to round is a whole different animal. I'd ask Tony if CS could fabricate an adaptor for you. Another option would be to return the 500 for the 1000. It's got a round stack!
Play around a little more like Cal says. You may not need the cap and could return unused.
Joe M

I too have a Vacu-stack on my FEC100 and all is fine with that.
Tony said "no" to Cookshack fabricating that transition, so I will need to go elsewhere or hoping maybe I can just tweek the bottom of the round fitting to fit the rectangular flue of the PG500. Last time I did any transition layouts was out of cardboard in my high school drafting class, way too many moons ago.

Not interested in returning it for a PG1000, but do wish Cookshack had put a round flue on the PG500. I think that little Z-shaped rain cap on it now is a bit hokey. Will probably look even stranger though with the vacustack on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Olysmokes:
Occasionally there are some clunking & groaning sounds as the auger turns, and other times it is just the little whirl of the auger motor and you can hear the pellts dropping into the fire pot. In chatting with Cookshack (Tony), it was felt this was just a sideways pellet or too long a pellet being forced down the feed pipe.

This is normal with mine.

I guess if your calling the swings and puff of smoke when the pellets fire a "flameout", I get a lot of those on mine. FE designed these in such a way that they have a fire, the fire then dies down after reaching a said set point and then smolders as pellets are dropped on them until there is fire which causes the grill to reach said set point, only to start the process again.

The difference in the settings will be the range that this process/swings are accomplished.

15/45 for 200*-250*
15/65 for 250*-300*
15/85 for 300*-400*

These are the settings that I use.

The biggest problem I get into during winds are on cold cloudy days, It sometimes causes condensation in the pellet hopper, which in return, causes moisture on the pellets. That causes the pellets to crumble into dust which doesn't allow for a good operation. I leave the pellet hopper lid open during these conditions and it won't sweat then.

Probably need to define "flameout"...

There are a lot of times there will not be a "flame" in the fire pot... the pellets will just be smoldering as the temp drops more pellets are dumped and a bigger fire is made.

If the fire goes completely out and you find yourself with a firepot full of unburnt pellets... that is a real situation where the fire has actually gone out.

So.. one circumstance is probably normal and the other is a problem...

Nordy

I'm with Nordy. If there was no fire, there would be nothing to reignite the pellets and you would have a firepot full of them.
The higher your HHT is, the more temperature swings you'll get.

What I call a "flameout" is when there is no fire in the firepot, unit is belching smoke - much, much more than usual and more than you want it to be, and temp is dropping fast 75-150* in 2-3 minutes. Soon a "woof" (similar to when unit first fires up) is heard followed by a big roaring fire that brings the unit back up to set point temp (with some overshoot of 30-40*).

Yes there may still be some pellets smoldering in the firepot, but the basic fire has gone out as there is no flame there - just a grill packed with smoke - oversmoking the food. More pellets are being added and after the draft fan gets enough smoke out so there is now enough oxygen to support combustion, the fire re-ignites. Opening the door will speed up that process. That to me is not normal operation and I would assume, not the way it was designed to operate. I know the fire size will vary due to the amount of fuel/pellets in the pot, but temp drops of 75-150* or more make it difficult to get the food done. About an hour into a cook, I got worried with chicken on the indirect side and a display temp that had dropped to 160*, even though grill set temp was 275*, LHT=20 & HHT=75.

Settings for my last smoke were LHT=40, HHT=60, and temp set at 350*. I still had times when there was no visible flame, grill was packed with smoke and display temp dropped to around 200* before it re-ignites and went back up to 380* or so. Those burgers had a lot of smoke to them.

I am not expecting this grill to run within narrow temp variations, and I understand the smoke generated will vary with how the fire is burning/being fed. I have a FEC100 and have watched the smoke & temp variations with that unit. What I see happening with this grill is so very, very different. I will get the vacustack cap installed after I get it and a transition piece made, and will report back.

quote:

Originally posted bu Olysmokes:
I am not expecting this grill to run within narrow temp variations, and I understand the smoke generated will vary with how the fire is burning/being fed. I have a FEC100 and have watched the smoke & temp variations with that unit. What I see happening with this grill is so very, very different. I will get the vacustack cap installed after I get it and a transition piece made, and will report back.

TOTALLY different animal between the two smokers, so throw out all the knowledge of the FEC when using the grill.

The grill doesn't sense the need for pellets like the FEC and it doesn't have a variable speed fan. The fan is constantly going on high speed.

The grill works in 15 second cycles, whatever the number you have on HHT will run the auger in this cycle until you hit set point, then the LHT 15 second cycle goes in until you are 5* below set point.

In this 15 second cycle the auger will run for whatever setting you have for part of the cycle...ie. 65 will be 6.5 seconds on then 8.5 seconds off.

quote:

Originally posted by NaughtyNurse:
I'm with Nordy. If there was no fire, there would be nothing to reignite the pellets and you would have a firepot full of them.
The higher your HHT is, the more temperature swings you'll get.

Very good point Greg, the more pellets dropped into the pot until it starts flaming, the greater the overshoot will be(bigger fire). Which will cause the fire to die down as it is in the LHT cycle(because it's there longer), which causes it longer to ignite in the HHT cycle. That causes the pot to have more pellets in it....causing wide swings and LOTS of smoke.

Cal, I understand the 15 second auger timing cycles and that either the LHT or HHT is controlling depending on whether or not display/unit temp is below or above the set temp. I just don't think display temps dropping down to 140-160* are normal temp "swings" with unit set temps at 275, 350, or 400* - that is as much as a 260 degree temp swing/difference between set and actual temps as registered by the display. I have tried many different LHT & HHT settings, but still getting those big swings.

I know the grill has a one speed draft fan vs two speed of the FEC. My point was that I know the amount of smoke coming out the flue will vary with each of the units due to pellet load in firepot and how big the flame is. I just get times where there is no flame in the firepot for many minutes.

In talking with Tony at Cookshack, he said a few others have experienced similar fire problems as I am, and most have solved by relocating/reorientating their grills. My situation is I am very limited as to my grill placement in order to keep it & me out of the almost constant rains here now, and the bigger issue of keeping the smoke from seeping into my house. I learned just how much smoke gets into this house from when I first started using my Amerique back in 2005 when I used it on my patio that is partially covered by a roof. I have since built a small removable "cover" at a different location at my house to use when it's raining.

Have you checked the temp with a different calibrated probe? Maybe it's a probe issue?
What pellets are you using?

quote:

Originally posted by olysmokes:
In talking with Tony at Cookshack, he said a few others have experienced similar fire problems as I am,

Oly, I will provide a disclaimer: Mine is a 1000, so the insulation may cause it to act a little differently and hold temps better?

I'm with Joe... I'd check with an independent probe. And move the pit somewhere else... at least to test the theory.

You shouldn't have swings that big.

I'm sure you have already checked, but make sure there is nothing blocking the air flow, ie make sure the flue isn't obstructed, the drip pan is properly placed etc.


I'm not as concerned regarding the no-fire and lots of smoke until a flame bursts again thing, other than the pit is dropping too much off the set point before recovering. There are lots of cycles where smoldering pellets should maintain the temp needed without a flame. (This is true for your FEC as well).

I also wouldn't be concerned about "oversmoking"... Never ever had that issue on a pellet pit... Not sure it's even possible without adding something to it...

So now that I understand that the unit isn't completely going out, it makes more sense. However, no idea why it is dropping so much temp before recovering.

So... I would
1)get a polder, or maverick type temp probe and watch the temps on that independent of the pits probe. Could be a probe issue
2) Move the pit even for a day, just to test if it makes a difference (I have a hard time believing it will...).
3)If all your findings get confirmed, I would consider talking with Tony about a replacement unit, or at least swapping out some parts like the fan, auger motor and maybe control board...

Also... not sure about the climate in Olympia, but if its cool and moist, you may do better with the insulated PG1000 anyway...

The more I think about it the more I think it's an airflow problem, obstruction or underpowered fan, blocked flue etc...

Nordy

I'm using Cookshack pellets.
No I have not verified with an independent probe yet, but can do that tonight. I think the factory probe cannot be too far off though. When the temp goes down below set point, I do hear the auger then start running longer each 15 second time period as it should do. So I'm thinking the HHT function & control board, are working just fine. I can find nothing obstructing the flue. Alignment of the pellet feed into firepot is good - I've gone thru about 1-1/2 bags of pellets so far and only collected about 5-6 pellets total out of ash dump drawer and nothing from bottom of unit.

My thoughts originally were that the LHT was causing the issue by not feeding enough pellets to keep the fire going. Adjusting the LHT up to 40 did not resolve my issue. It did however prevent the grill from achieving temps under 315* which is understandable with a LHT setting of that high. (Too fast of an idle as Nordy put it in his excellent post on LHT & HHT settings).

Weather in western Washington typically now is around 40-55 degrees, 5-20mph winds, and rain showers. We get lots of little short-lived wind gusts that can be be perfect for blowing smoke back down chimneys or snuffing out a low-burning flame. I keep my grill inside my attached garage when it's not being used, so it's not subject to our moist exterior environment - ie pellets not getting damp/wet.

Regarding the amount of smoke my grill is producing when the temp is doing it's big drop thing and before re-ignition occurs, I can only compare it what my old Amerique would do at start-up when it was over loaded with 5-6 chunks of wood. Imagine that same smoke density (density - not volume) as what comes out of those two vent holes now coming out of my 2-1/4 x 4" flue and it gets to be a bunch of smoke. There is smoke billowing out of the flue, leaking out around the doors as well as both drawers, and out of the pellet hopper. I'm lucky my neighbors have not thought my house was on fire and called the fire department, yet....

quote:

Originally posted by olysmokes:
I'm using Cookshack pellets.
No I have not verified with an independent probe yet, but can do that tonight. I think the factory probe cannot be too far off though. When the temp goes down below set point, I do hear the auger then start running longer each 15 second time period as it should do. So I'm thinking the HHT function & control board, are working just fine. I can find nothing obstructing the flue. Alignment of the pellet feed into firepot is good - I've gone thru about 1-1/2 bags of pellets so far and only collected about 5-6 pellets total out of ash dump drawer and nothing from bottom of unit.

My thoughts originally were that the LHT was causing the issue by not feeding enough pellets to keep the fire going. Adjusting the LHT up to 40 did not resolve my issue. It did however prevent the grill from achieving temps under 315* which is understandable with a LHT setting of that high. (Too fast of an idle as Nordy put it in his excellent post on LHT & HHT settings).

Weather in western Washington typically now is around 40-55 degrees, 5-20mph winds, and rain showers. We get lots of little short-lived wind gusts that can be be perfect for blowing smoke back down chimneys or snuffing out a low-burning flame. I keep my grill inside my attached garage when it's not being used, so it's not subject to our moist exterior environment - ie pellets not getting damp/wet.

Regarding the amount of smoke my grill is producing when the temp is doing it's big drop thing and before re-ignition occurs, I can only compare it what my old Amerique would do at start-up when it was over loaded with 5-6 chunks of wood. Imagine that same smoke density (density - not volume) as what comes out of those two vent holes now coming out of my 2-1/4 x 4" flue and it gets to be a bunch of smoke. There is smoke billowing out of the flue, leaking out around the doors as well as both drawers, and out of the pellet hopper. I'm lucky my neighbors have not thought my house was on fire and called the fire department, yet....

All of this sounds good. You must understand I cook in high winds also.

One question, have you ever cleaned out the bottom of your pellet hopper? If not, do this and then put your settings on 15/65. Set the temp at 275* and let it run for a while and see what temp swings you get. Mine are about 260*-280*, it also takes about 30 minutes to come up to set point.

I've had a few problems when I let the pellet grinds accumulate in the bottom of the hopper.

quote:

Originally posted by cal:
One question, have you ever cleaned out the bottom of your pellet hopper? If not, do this and then put your settings on 15/65. Set the temp at 275* and let it run for a while and see what temp swings you get. Mine are about 260*-280*, it also takes about 30 minutes to come up to set point.

Cal, sorry did not see your post till this morning, so my settings varied a bit from your suggestion. Last night we had some nice weather - a bit of sunshine and winds not an issue. Fired up the PG500 with temp set to 275*, LHT=15 & HHT=80, outside air at 56*, and placed grill out in driveway with different orientation from usual. Went to store to get some chicken, so grill had about 45 minutes of running time to warm up. When I got back, watched it go through 5 temp swing cycles of 252 to 293*. Just for fun I then bumped LHT=20 without much change in performance. Time then to cook dinner.

I did place my Polder temp probe inside when I started up the grill. Stuck ball of foil between grill bars near factory probe, inserted Polder probe thru foil ball so tip was in free air relatively near factory probe. Polder register started with 20* difference at lower grill temp of 90*, and as the grill display temp increased so did the difference between that and Polder probe, with a max difference of 60* when grill display was at 293* with Polder at 353*. Then moved Polder probe to indirect grill a little right of center with its tip in a small, loose ball of foil. Temps of grill display & Polder probe then only varied by about 2* and probe temp closely followed the up & down swings of the grill. Don't have a clue as to why the Polder probe gave me such a wide variation of temp differences between grill display and its display when hanging in the free air, but stayed almost same when slightly shielded with foil. My Polder temps & Thermapen temps have been registering basically same lately so don't think Polder is much off.

I have not yet cleaned out hopper/auger since I have only run about 1-3/4 bags of pellets thru it, but will do so shortly.

My problem might be solved now.
Yesterday I had the end panel off the hopper/control box assembly to fix a noisy draft fan. I found one of the blades was 'ticking' on a corner of one Z-bracket which holds the fan to bottom of the air tunnel box (don't know tech term for that box piece that fire pot sits in at other end of it). I noticed the fan was mounted off-center of the hole in that air tunnel box by about 3/4", so some of the air it was moving was going around the outside of that box instead of into it to feed the fire pot. There were 2 sets of mounting holes in those Z-brackets, one set would center fan in opening, and the other would offset fan from that opening. When I reinstalled the fan, I used the holes which would center the fan on that hole.

That air tunnel box is made up of two pieces of metal which are joined to form that box. The top/sides are one-piece formed into a U-shape with small turned-in flanges at bottom of side edges. The bottom is a flat piece which is then attached to the turned-in flanges of the sides. A nice round hole was cut into the bottom piece where the fan is mounted before it was joined to the top/sides piece. One of the turned-in flanges at bottom of the side pieces was notched for that fan hole, and one side was not, which then partially blocked the free area of that fan hole previously cut into the bottom piece. I used some snips to remove that portion of the uncut side flange piece.

The combined result of trimming that flange piece and remounting the fan so it was now centered was a much better performing fire during last night's cook. Temp swings were smaller, and at bottom/lower end of a swing, the fire built back up without that huge billowing of smoke and "poofing" sound as it had previously done. Yes there is still considerable smoke generated at bottom/lower end of swing - just not the big "Hollywood Movie" amount as before. I am thinking it is now operating more as intended.

I believe I was having a draft problem as Tony at Cookshack suggested, only the problem was at the source/supply for the draft and not wind blow-back at the outlet/chimney end as he had suggested.

Makes sense... keep us posted.

I suspected an airflow issue, but that's interesting how the fan was mis-mounted etc. I would have guessed a faulty fan before I guessed that!

After talking with Tony at Cookshack, draft fan is supposed to be mounted off-center of the plenum box hole. Reason is to blow some air up towards the control panel to help keep it cool.

Olysmokes- Where you able to make a chimney wind cap? Cookshack recommended I do the same (I am having ignited pellets in my auger). I was wondering how you did it if you did? Thanks!

MadFoodScientist - No I was not able to fabricate a decent looking short-throated transition from PG's rectangular flue to Vacu-Stac's round cap, so I never did anything except for more adjustments of LHT & HHT which has given me acceptable results. I now use a LHT of around 25-35 depending on outside temps & unit temp I want and a HHT of 75-85. This is what works for me in my neck of the woods and how I use my grill - it may not work for you where you live or how you want your unit to perform. I don't often use high heat temps in my PG500. I know it's been said many times before on this Forum, but it seems to be true that getting your smoker well seasoned-up helps the smoker stabilize its temps more, and I have found it true. I know it is a bit frustrating to have to go thru the ups & downs of "what's it going to do today??" during that seasoning period, but it will be worth it.
I have found that using a higher LHT setting (25-35) keeps the fire in the fire pot going, and then using a lower HHT setting (75-85) so it does not smother the firepot fire by dumping a ton of pellets in there when it needs to raise the unit temp. Using a lower HHT setting like this does increase the time needed to get to a higher overall grill temp, but I don't mind. Play around with the LHT & HHT settings and see what works.

As to your issue of ignited pellets in the hopper, that may be due to running your unit at high temps which requires a big roaring fire in the fire pot that then tends to creep up the ramp and back into auger & hopper. There is another recent thread on this Forum concerning that same problem - see "PG500 Hopper Fire/Smolder". The solution there is to allow a lower temp cool-down period for a bit to clear ignited pellets out of the hopper before shutting down the grill for the night.